Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 8: Electronic Edition

Pages 86 - 90 of 191

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    Yes, tab 6. This, I think, Mr Irving, is perhaps
 1trial in, I think, 1971 or 2.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is this in German?
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. It does not matter.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is it not simple letter to look at Professor
 5van Pelt? Can you give me the reference, at any rate, so
 6that I can follow it there?
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It cannot be 931. No, it is in the text of
 9his report because I think that will probably have the
10guts of it and if Mr Irving does not agree, he will say
11so. I think it is 611. Is it 611?
12 MR RAMPTON:     It is in two places, I think, actually.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think I have any problem with this document at
14all. I will concede that they found in the ventilator
15grating taken from mortuary No. 1 of crematorium (ii)
16remains of cyanide.
17 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. How do you account for that, Mr Irving?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Because that particular room was used as vergasungskeller,
19as a gassing cellar.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Gassing what?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I think the evidence is clear that it was used as a
22gassing cellar for fumigating objects or cadavers.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Fumigating cadavers?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What makes you say that?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     That is what that room was for. That is what mortuaries

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 1are for. In mortuaries you put cadavers.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is news to me, Mr Irving. What is the evidence for
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I beg your pardon?
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What is the evidence that they used that for gassing
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     That is what it was built for.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, this seems a crude question, but
 9what is the point of gassing a corpse?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Because they came in heavily infested with the typhus
11bearing lice that had killed them.
12 MR RAMPTON:     So why would it need a gas type door with a peep
13hole with double eight millimetre thick glass and a metal
14grill on it?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I think you will have to show us the evidence for
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I will do.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     And the evidence that this door was intended for that
19particular room and the evidence it was possible to obtain
20doors without the peep holes and the evidence that the
21room was not intended to be used for other purposes too.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, Mr Irving. You see, I do not have to prove anything.
23I am testing your, I have to say, slightly bizarre
24suggestion that you put Zyklon B into a room where the
25people are already dead. You tell me, "Oh, well, that is
26because they wanted to delouse the corpses". Then I asked

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 1you, "Why then does it need a gas type door with a peep
 2hole and a metal protection on it?"
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Because at this time in the war most of Germany was coming
 4under the, it was feeling the weight of Royal Air Force
 5bomber commands forays. We were bombing all over Eastern
 6Europe. Our bombing raids were extending further and
 7further into Central Europe. You will see from the
 8Auschwitz construction department files an increasing
 9concern about the need to build bomb tight shelters and
10gas tight shelters because of the danger of gas attack.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now it is an air raid shelter, is it?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     I beg your pardon?
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In early 1943, Mr Irving, the first bombing raid anywhere
14near Auschwitz was not until late '44?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, if the court so pleases, I will tomorrow
16produce to you an index of all the documents in the
17Auschwitz construction department files from late 1942
18onwards dealing with the necessity to build air raid
19shelters, gas tight air raid shelters and other similar
20constructions on the Auschwitz compound and on the
21Birkenhau compound for precisely the reasons that I have
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is either a cellar for gassing corpses, is it,
24Mr Irving, or else it is an air raid shelter?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Did I say either or?
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Both. If it is an air raid shelter, Mr Irving, why would

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 1the doors open outwards? It only has a single door.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     If an air raid shelter, why would the doors open outward?
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. You have the SS sheltering from the allied bombs.
 4No bombs had been near Auschwitz yet in the war, not for
 5another year ----
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I will produce this clip of documents tomorrow,
 7Mr Rampton, to satisfy even the most incorrigible counsel
 8that, yes, our air raids were beginning to be felt in that
 9part of Europe.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We shall be pleased to see them is all I will say at the
11moment, Mr Irving.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I just see where we have got to? I still
13have not been provided with the reference in Professor van
15 A. [Mr Irving]     We have plunged deep into basement No. 1.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It just helps me to follow what is not always
17immediately clear.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, can I show you?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is 1945 Polish investigation?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I show you a picture of the building we are talking
21about? This is the crematorium No. (ii), the whole
23 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     And this is the Leichenkeller No. 1, which is the mortuary
25No. 1. You can see the roof is pancaked downwards, but it
26is still possible to crawl underneath it just so you get a

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 1kind of visual impression of what the building looks like
 2now. You can see the tourists down there looking at it.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, thank you. I thought I had found the
 4reference at page 611, but I do not think that is it.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Miss Rogers tells me, my Lord, that there are
 6references to the 1945 Polish report, but, as I
 7had originally thought, there are only sort of what one
 8might call passing references?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Shall I just very briefly translate the first page?
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, not yet. I am in the middle of trying to tell his
11Lordship why it is not profitable to look in the report
12itself because the substance of the report as a whole is
13not reproduced or summarised.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am trying for the purposes of eventually my
15note to ----
16 MR RAMPTON:     Would your Lordship like to look at page 198?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of Professor van Pelt?
18 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, since that was your Lordship's question.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I wanted to know whether that is what
20you were referring to. I have 198.
21 MR RAMPTON:     Cracow, my Lord, appears on page 198 and just a
22line at the top of 199.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is Dawidowski, is it?
24 MR RAMPTON:     No. This is a set of tests done by the forensic
25laboratory at Cracow, and their report was dated 15th
26December 1945. It may have been have part of

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