Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 8: Electronic Edition

Pages 81 - 85 of 191

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    "And the Canadian lawyer sent Fred Leuchter actually to
 1answer", note that, "is Fred Leuchter came back and proved
 2there had never been any cyanide gas or compounds in those
 3buildings. He brought back 40 samples and had those
 4samples of brickwork tested in laboratories", plural, "in
 5the United States with the result there was no trace of
 6cyanide compound whatsoever in all the brickwork samples
 7except one. You can see it here. There was one building
 8in Auschwitz where clothing was fumigated with cyanide and
 9you could see the blue stain coming through the brickwork
10from the cyanide gas which was used in that building 50
11years ago, and the blue stain has permeated right through
12the brickwork to such a degree that you can actually see
13the stain there 50 years later.
14     "When the Leuchter report was published, it
15produced a howl of rage from the traditional enemy of the
16truth". Who is the traditional enemy of the truth,
17Mr Irving?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh, I see them every now and then outside my building in
19Duke Street. I am woken at 3.00 in the morning by the
20police unloading barricades. I look out of the window and
21they are all standing outside holding up their signs
22saying, "Gas Irving", screaming and shouting. That is the
23way I envisage the traditional enemy of the truth.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You go on then to talk about Gemar Rudolf, it is perfectly
25true. But the fact is in that little passage that I have
26just read in October 1995, according to you, Leuchter is

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 1still gospel?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     He wrote the most telling report. It was the one that
 3started the whole avalanche.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Not a word there of any of he flaws, and they are
 5fundamental flaws, which you knew then, if not before,
 6certainly by the early 1990s, late 1980s, the Leuchter
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     By this time, of course, we have had probably two or even
 9three of the backup, the replica tests carried out by
10other groups or organizations which showed that Fred
11Leuchter had, broadly speaking, got it right. So why
12I should mention the fact that there were the cosmetic
13flaws like when you said you could not get 10 people
14standing on a square metre of floor and this kind of
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Fred Leuchter is complete bunk, his report, is it not?
17I am going to go through the criticisms because his
18Lordship has asked me to.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, repeating that sentence 20 or 30 times a day ----
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is what matters. That is why I
21have said it.
22 MR RAMPTON:     It is not only what matters. There are two sides
23to Mr Irving, my Lord. There is the public face and the
24private face. I think I have done that exercise so far as
25the public face is concerned. Your Lordship should,
26however, see one or two of what I call the private face

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 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am much more interested in the validity or
 3invalidity of the criticism. At the moment, I will be
 4candid with you, Mr Irving, it seems to me that Mr Beer
 5had an extremely good point on Leuchter, but he started
 6off from a fundamental false premise.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     I agree, my Lord, yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That is the way I am seeing it at the moment. There is no
 9point in my concealing it.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     And what else should I have done than what I immediately
11did? I immediately forwarded the Beer report. We did not
12know who Beer was. We do not know what his credentials
13are. He may be a toxicologist, he may be a chemist, he
14may be gardener for all I know.
15 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I would be interested to be told.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, we were not told, but I immediately forwarded this
17report to the people concerned, including those who had
18written the report, and said, "This is a criticism we have
19to take on board". You do not immediately rush into print
20and start tearing something apart because of one criticism
21or because of two criticisms.
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     And something you then learned told you that Leuchter's
23assumption was a justified one or ----
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, as I mentioned, my Lord, we then obtained the
25additional reports which showed that Leuchter had been not
26barking up the wrong tree, but barking up the right tree,

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 1and I do draw attention again to the fact that as early as
 2my introduction to that report, I said this is a flawed
 3report. There are things in it that I would like to have
 4seen done differently. The whole purpose of the report
 5was to put the ball in the court of the other side so they
 6come back and convince us.
 7 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That is as may be, but I am interested to know what it was
 8that emerged that told you that Leuchter was right,
 9because at the moment it seems to me there is a
10fundamental problem with his report.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     In that case, when my turn comes to lead evidence, I shall
12lead evidence introducing these other reports if
13Mr Rampton is reluctant to put before the court.
14 MR RAMPTON:     May I invite your Lordship -- it will save time,
15it will save me having to do it now -- just to read -- not
16now, I do not mean, when it is convenient to your Lordship
17 -- the little bundle of correspondence that is in tab 8
18of the first of the new bundles, K1?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I already requested his Lordship to do that.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I already requested that his Lordship should do that.
22 MR RAMPTON:     Not now, my Lord. There are some quite
23significant letters in there, we would say, and then I
24need not ask questions about them unless your Lordship
25invites me to do so. Before I come to the Leuchter report
26itself, though, there are two things I want to get out of

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 1the way, Mr Irving. In 1945, the forensic laboratory at
 2Cracow made a report on two different things: (1) metal
 3covers with holes in them taken from what they call the
 4gas chambers at Birkenhau. They were covers on the
 5ventilation openings, so the report said -- I am sure you
 6know it well?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     It may be useful if we actually had the report before us.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Very well. My Lord, that is in tab 6.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Or possibly Professor Pelt's ----
10 MR RAMPTON:     There is only ----
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sorry, van Pelt.
12 MR RAMPTON:     There is only a summary of it in van Pelt, my
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is that not going to be -- I do not know.
15Take your own course.
16 MR RAMPTON:     No, because I know what is going to happen, we are
17going to wind up looking at the report anyway, if we are
18not careful.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Tab 6, you said?
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Tab 6 of this new file, K.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     This is the one in German?
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, this is the report of 15th December 1945.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Tab 6.
24 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, tab 6. This, I think, Mr Irving, is perhaps
25 -- Mr Irving, I can tell you this a copy made for the
26court in Vienna when the Auschwitz architects were on

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