Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 8: Electronic Edition

Pages 76 - 80 of 191

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    I am anxious you should have an opportunity
 1told who Mr Beer is but anyway----
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     His credentials, precisely.
 3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     But you have also, I think you have to have the
 4opportunity to develop this if you want to, said, well
 5although I understand the criticism that is made of
 6Leuchter and his assumption, his key assumption,
 7nevertheless matters have moved on and Leuchter's report
 8has been, as you put it, replicated.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     It has been overtaken by other better reports.
10 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     If that be right and if that is your case, then I think
11you ought to have the opportunity to develop that at some
12stage. I do not want to take Mr Rampton out of order.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Perhaps Mr Rampton wanted to avoid asking precisely those
14questions that your Lordship has now asked.
15 MR RAMPTON:     Oh, Mr Irving, I do not need to avoid asking you
16anything at all. This is not the time for you to give --
17if you chose not to give me the documents and give
18evidence-in-chief about it, you will have to do it later.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, all these documents have been in discovery,
20and I can summarize very briefly. I accepted the Leuchter
21was flawed on its figures and on its methodology. It was
22a pioneering report. It was the first kind of examination
23that had ever been conducted to our knowledge of the
24Auschwitz site. It was replicated afterwards. It has
25been superseded. Everybody on the incorrigible
26revisionist wing says Leuchter is a good old chap, but he

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 1got bits wrong and, in the meantime, there are other much
 2more solid reports that have replaced it.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Just pause there for a moment. Just so that
 4I have it clear because I have in the end to make sense of
 5all this, what do you say is the report or reports which
 6replicate Leuchter's conclusion?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     There have been a series of reports and I can summarize
 8them in this way. In 1945, it subsequently turned out,
 9the Poles had themselves conducted a test or tests on
10artifacts found at Auschwitz, including a metal grating, a
11metal grating and human hair. After the Leuchter came
12into public -- came to public attention, the Auschwitz
13authorities themselves carried out a secret replica of the
14tests, came up with unsatisfactory results and kept their
15report secret.
16     Subsequently Gemar Rudolf went to Auschwitz and
17wrote a report which is known as the Rudolf Report. Now,
18Rudolf is a qualified chemist and he conducted the tests
19on a much more scientific basis. He came up with figures
20which broadly confirmed the conclusions that Leuchter had
21originally reached.
22     After criticisms were expressed of the Leuchter
23report, which are under one of these tabs which your
24Lordship has read some of, we took the appropriate
25action. We discussed among ourselves how far these
26criticisms had to be taken seriously and what should be

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 1done about them. We did not do that in public. I do not
 2think anybody -- a scientific institute would have done it
 3in public. We certainly did not ignore the criticism. We
 4did not just go charging ahead like a blind bull.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. So it is Polish tests in 1945,
 6Auschwitz authorities sometime in the late 80s/early 90s.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     1989 or '90, yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     And Mr Rudolf?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     And then Mr Rudolf since then, yes. I think there have
10been other tests conducted also since then. The bone has
11been repeatedly chewed over, and if the Leuchter achieved
12anything at all, it was an open discussion of this very
13awkward matter.
14 MR RAMPTON:     Then, I am afraid, this is inevitable, Mr Irving,
15in the light of those answers or that evidence you have
16now given. Turn to what you said in Tampa, Florida.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, I am so sorry to be
18interrupting. I have to understand the validity or the
19invalidity of the criticisms of Leuchter. What he said
20about it seems to me -- we have seen plenty of quotes
21where he says, "Leuchter has convinced me that they never
22existed, these camps".
23 MR RAMPTON:     No, but, my Lord, I think what he has just told
24your Lordship is this, is it not: "I accept", although he
25has never said it publicly, "that Leuchter was flawed, his
26methodology was poor, his logic was wrong", or whatever it

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 1is, "but, of course, he has since been validated by other
 2work", including two documents which I am shortly going to
 3show him. It is surprising, in the light of that answer,
 4that in 1985 he still adheres to Leuchter as though it
 5were gospel.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We can certainly look and see what he says in
 8 MR RAMPTON:     That is tab 20 of the new file 3, page 19.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Of course, if I may leap ahead and say that if, at the end
10of the day, it turns out that you were right all along
11about these buildings, then all of this discussion is
13 MR RAMPTON:     No, Mr Irving, it is not because we are not
14concerned in this court with proving or disproving what
15happened in Auschwitz. We are concerned with your state
16of mind and your standards of, what shall I say, truth
17when it comes to reporting history?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     You are quite right, but, of course, my state of mind does
19not rely solely on scientific reports or chemical
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not dignify Fred Leuchter's report as a scientific
22report, I am afraid, Mr Irving?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Did you say tab 19?
24 MR RAMPTON:     20, my Lord, page 19. Second paragraph on the
25page after the break. "Fred Leuchter who wrote the report
26here which is one of the most telling reports on the

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 1Auschwitz case"?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     On what page are we, I am sorry?
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sorry, page 19, bottom of the page. "Fred Leuchter who
 4wrote the report here which is one of the most telling
 5reports on the Auschwitz case, if you may remember, Fred
 6Leuchter was the American consultant on the gas chamber
 7design. He designs and gives advice on the building of
 8gas chambers by American ... He was nominated by every
 9governor of every American penitentiary as a defence
10consultant for a law case in Canada which hinged on the
11Nazi gas chambers. You have seen it in the OJ Simpson
12case. They call in experts; experts on DNA, experts on
13footprints or whatever, and that expert then gives expert
14evidence, and the expert in this Canadian case was Fred
16     Pausing there, Mr Irving, it is not true, is
17it? He was not allowed to give expert evidence about
18Auschwitz, was he?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     He was called as an expert evidence -- he was allowed to
20give expertise. If you read the transcript of the trial,
21you will see what areas he was allowed to give expert
22evidence on.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "And the Canadian lawyer sent Fred Leuchter actually to
24Auschwitz in Poland and said, 'You are a gas chamber
25expert. Tell us what you think about the buildings in
26Auschwitz. Would they have worked?' Well, the short

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