Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 8: Electronic Edition

Pages 66 - 70 of 191

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    I do not agree. I think that the central chemical
 1conclusions of the Leuchter report, although flawed, have
 2now been substantially confirmed by a whole string of
 3other reports in the meantime, both the one kept secret by
 4the Auschwitz authorities and the earlier 1945 one, and
 5the Gelmar Rudolf one, and other reports that have been
 6conducted since then. Obviously the numbers do not
 7exactly match, and you would not expect them to, but the
 8broad trend is the same, very large quantities in the
 9fumigation clambers, cyanide residues and not the
10quantities you would expect in the buildings where
11allegedly hundreds of thousands of people have been gassed
12to death with cyanide.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So you say. In order to set the scene, this has become a
14little bit disorderly, Mr Irving, because you keep
15referring to some documents we have and others that we do
16not. Leave that on one side for the moment. We are just
17going to do, if we may, a little bit of arithmetic.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     These documents have all been in my discovery. None of
19them have been concealed.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am not suggesting you are hiding anything from this
21court, Mr Irving, in the way of documents. Can you please
22turn in the Leuchter report in the front of your bundle.
23You may be better to use the copied one unless that has
24all 12 appendices. Appendix 12 to the copy of the
25Leuchter report that I have, my Lord, in the bottom right
26hand corner should be page No. 49.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     This is Mr Fruisson's name written on the top of
 3it, if you turn it sideways, has it? It has Fruisson
 4written beside Appendix 12. Please turn to page 51,
 5bottom right hand corner, that is the internal page number
 6of the report. This is a document produced by the firm of
 7Degesch, do you agree, who are the manufacturers of Zyklon
 8B? I am not suggesting this is a wartime document.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     They are not the manufacturers. The manufacturers were I
10G Farbon. Degesch were the people who controlled the
11supplies and Tesh were the company who allocated the
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The distributors?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you look at page 55, you can see a picture of some tins
16of Zyklon B. That is only just mentioned in passing, so
17one can see there are three different tin sizes. I do not
18know what the rates were. If you look at page 51, in the
19left-hand column under hydro cyanic acid, which is the
20active agent in these pellets, is it not?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     At the very bottom of the column we see that one part per
23million of hydrogen cyanide, that is a concentration, is
24equivalent to .0012 grammes per cubic metre.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now, if you turn backwards in this file to appendix 3, we

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 1come to a translation of a wartime document. My Lord, it
 2is page 23, which I think is a Nuremberg document, is it
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, from the industrial case N I.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And we see that it is issued, I do not know the exact
 6date, but it was issued presumably during the war, it must
 7have been during the war, by the Health Institution of the
 8Protectorate of Bohemia and Morevia in Prague. We find
 9that on page 25. If you turn to the second page of this
10document, page 24, and look at IX towards the bottom of
11left hand column, we see there:
12     "The strength of gas and the time required for
13it to take effect depends on the type of vermin, the
14temperature, the amount of furniture in the rooms, the
15imperviousness of building. With inside temperatures of
16more than 5 degrees centigrade it is customary to use 8
17grammes of Prussic acid, that hydrogen cyanide, per cubic
18metre. Time needed to take effect 16 hours, unless there
19are special circumstances such as a closed in type of
20building which requires less time. If the weather is
21warm, it is possible to reduce this to a minimum of 6
22hours. The period is to be extended to at least 32 hours
23if the temperature is below 5 degrees centigrade. The
24strength and time as above are to be applied in the case
25of bugs, lice, fleas, etc. with eggs, larvae..."
26     If, Mr Irving, .0012 grammes per cubic metre

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 1produces a concentration of one part per million, 8
 2grammes per cubic meter produces, I can tell you, a
 3concentration of 6,666 parts per million.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Wrong.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Wrong.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     You are talking about hydrogen cyanide.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, that is what they are talking about.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     But we are talking about pellets, and pellets only contain
11a small quantity of hydrogen cyanide sucked into them.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Who is talking about pellets, Mr Irving? I am certainly
14 A. [Mr Irving]     OK, carry on.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Where does it say anything here about pellets?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     If later on you start talking about tins of Zyklon B.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I am reading from the wartime document.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     All right. As long as we are clear there is a distinction
19between the weight of cyanide and the weight of the
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Degesch is talking in the other document we looked at
22about concentrations of cyanide parts per million of air.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So is this document. Customary to use 8 grammes of
25Prussic acid per cubic metre?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Hydrogen cyanide supplied.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Nothing about pellets. So I am right, am I not?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I do accept the point that it takes less Zyklon B or
 3hydrogen cyanide to kill the vermin in fumigation chambers
 4at lower concentration than it does to kill human beings.
 5I accept this point.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you look at the Leuchter report, Mr Leuchter knows
 7this, does he not? If you look at page 12, right hand
 8column, the toxic effects of H C N gas under the bold
 9heading, "medical tests show that a concentration of
10hydrogen cyanide gas in an amount of 300 parts per million
11in air is rapidly fading. Generally for execution
12purposes concentration of 3,200 parts per million is used
13to ensure rapid death." Mr Irving, that has nothing to do
14with this case, has it?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     I am lost.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am completely lost.
17 MR RAMPTON:     Page 12 of the Leuchter report.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not know what it is that, after a great
19many questions, Mr Irving said he accepted.
20 MR RAMPTON:     That you need higher concentration to kill lice.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought we established that about three
22quarters of an hour ago.
23 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. I am interested in the figures though. That
24is why I wanted to do the arithmetic.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am lost on the figures.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     

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