Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 8: Electronic Edition

Pages 61 - 65 of 191

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    "I do not think that the Leuchter results have
 1exposed surface? I did not have any idea. That is like
 2analysing paint on a wall by analysing the timber that is
 3behind it."
 4     Now Mr Irving, that is the man that did the
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Can I add that he also said on a part that is not in
 7the film, "Had I known that these samples came from
 8Auschwitz, I would have come up with completely different
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the significance, you say, of that?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     I suggest that he is not entirely subjective not.
12 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     You mean objective?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Not entirely objective.
14 MR RAMPTON:     Maybe. Mr Irving, what this suggests is, to use
15one of your words, it is absolutely shattering, is it not?
16Despite the absolutely hopeless methodology that Fred
17Leuchter used to obtain his samples, the fact is that the
18sample from the Leichenkeller in crematorium 3 still
19produced traces of hydrogen cyanide, did it not?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Which samples is he talking about here?
21 MR RAMPTON:     He is talking about the ruins of Auschwitz which
22Fred Leuchter surreptitiously removed on his visit and
23brought back to be analysed in America.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     From the gas chambers or the delousing
25chamber or both?
26 MR RAMPTON:     Both, as far as I know. He did the whole lot and

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 1that is the where the figures in the Leuchter report come
 2from, my Lord. It is from Dr Roth's analysis.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Dr Roth says that it is less than one tenth the thickness
 4of a human hair that the cyanide will penetrate into the
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Exactly. If you are going to do the test scientifically,
 7you need carefully to scratch or scrape the surface and
 8put it in a plastic bag, take it back and have it
 9analysed. What Fred Leuchter did was to hack great lumps
10out of the fabric, did he not?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, I am not just going to go annihilate evidence
12from Dr Roth, I am going to exterminate it when the time
13comes, when we produce the photographs.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Make a start now.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, we have photographs taken of the outside of some
16of these buildings, I emphasise the word "outside", and
17the blue stain from the cyanide has gone right through the
18brickwork, inch after inch after inch. You can see the
19outside of the building is stained blue with a stain that
20turns out to be Prussian blue from the cyanide that has
21come right through the brickwork.
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That is the delousing chamber, is it?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     The delousing chamber, my Lord, yes and also a gas chamber
24at Stutthorf outside Dansig.
25 MR RAMPTON:     How long, Mr Irving, does it take to delouse a
26set, I call it a set, of clothing of, let us say, 1500

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 1people in a delousing chamber using Zyklon B?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     That is neither here nor there. Dr Roth had not spoken
 3about the length of time. He says it goes less than one
 4tenth of the thickness of a human hair into the brickwork.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How long does it take to disinfect, using Zyklon B,
 6delouse the clothing of 1500 people?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think Mr Rampton is right, that the way it
 9is put here, and it is not perhaps the most satisfactory
10way to present Dr Roth's views, if this is a television
11interview, is that cyanide is only ever a surface
13 MR RAMPTON:     Yes indeed.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, these photographs will be in evidence later on
15this week.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is really a chemistry point, not a
17photograph point.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     An image is worth a thousand words, perhaps.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Maybe.
20 MR RAMPTON:     It depends. The camera never lies, of course,
21does it, Mr Irving? Have the outside surfaces of that
22building which you say has the blue staining on it been
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, by Mr Gelman Rudolf. He has carried out very
25intensive tests on them.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, these criticisms by Mr Beer were cogent, were

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 1they not?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     They were, yes, of course. I did not ignore them at all.
 3I immediately contacted all relevant parties as the
 4correspondence under flag 8 or 9 shows, and said we have
 5to take these on board.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What about the general public?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, you must realize, by this time you also have the
 8other collateral evidence.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     By what time? When did your so-called collateral evidence
10come to light?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh, it was coming in the whole time. As soon as the
12Leuchter report was published, people starting contacting
13us and telling us about other such things.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What do you mean by collateral evidence?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     For example, we know that both of a forensic nature,
16somebody sent us a copy of the Krakow report by the Jansen
17Institute which the Auschwitz state museum immediately
18commissioned after the Leuchter report was published, and
19they did not like the findings, and so they pigeonholed
20it. They put it in a safe and locked it away, because it
21basically substantiated what Mr Leuchter had said. Then
22the original Jansen report was also supplied to us, the
231945 report.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Us? Who is "us"?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Us?
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You said "supplied us"?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     A copy was supplied to me, a copy was supplied to the
 2Institute of Historical Review in California, and in fact
 3it was supplied to us surreptitiously. Somebody in the
 4Auschwitz archives photographed a copy and sent us a copy
 5of what the Auschwitz archives were concealing from.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I still do not know who "us" is?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Is it material?
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, I think it probably is, in the light of this
 9correspondence which we are going to look at more in a
11 A. [Mr Irving]     A copy was sent to me, a copy was sent to Mark Weber
12probably of the Institute of Historical Review.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And one no doubt to Ernst Zundel?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I think I sent a copy to him, if my memory is correct.
15These things were shuffled back and forth. Sometimes
16I got them, sometimes the others got them and then we
17would collaborate. We put our heads together. Obviously
18there is no point rushing into print with some kind of
19conclusion this way and that. It would be looking like
20headless chickens if you come out with first one thing and
21then another thing.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have never publicly acknowledged any of these reports,
23critiques and so on which cast doubt, sometimes 100 per
24cent doubt, on your utterances about the gas chambers at
26 A. [Mr Irving]     

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