Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 8: Electronic Edition
Pages 6 - 10 of 191
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1 MR IRVING: My Lord, finally, I come to the little bundle of
2documents. It is a rather arcane matter, but again
3I believe the Defence rely heavily on my choice of
4language. Your Lordship will remember the rather heated
5remarks I made about certain Jewish fraudsters and
6racketeer in the United States, Ivan Boesky, Michael
7Milken, and so on. I suggested they were hiding behind,
8they were insulating themselves from public criticism by
9the use of the Holocaust. This is what is now
10scientifically or academically referred to as the
11instrumentalisation of the Holocaust. This is one
12particular example which came to our attention. Mr Melvin
13Murmelstein, who may well be mentioned later on in the
14case, started a claim against the Hertford Insurance
15Company. His lawyers warned the insurance company that,
16as a survivor of Nazi concentration camps during World War
17II, this matter is extremely important to Mr Murmelstein.
18That is page 2, my Lord. On page 6, the insurance
19company's own lawyers warned them, warned the insurance
20company, to settle the $100,000 being claimed, saying,
21 "The lawyer argues that a jury will be sympathetic to a
22man who has survived a Nazi concentration camp", and so
23on. So this is the kind ----
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not quite the same point, is it? The
25point that I think you were making in that talk that we
26looked at on Thursday was that Jews who get up to some
1sort of financial or other misconduct then used the
2Holocaust as a kind of shield against their own
4 MR IRVING: My Lord, it may well be that I shall lead ----
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is a slightly use or instrumentalization
6of the Holocaust.
7 MR IRVING: It is an insulation which goes on. Perhaps it is
8automatic -- we all have the utmost sympathy with victims
9of the Holocaust, and that includes myself, and I want
10to say that here; but I want to get this one instance in
11now because of the rather ugly note we closed on on
12Thursday evening, and it may well be I will lead further
13evidence which will go more closely to the matter actually
14raised. With that, I end my submission, my Lord.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I will put these into, just so we know where
16they are going, J. I think we have got to 8, but there is
17a problem with these loose documents.
18 So that completes what you wanted to say about
19that, Mr Irving.
20 MR IRVING: I have completed my submission, my Lord.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, you do not want to say anything
22about this matter?
23 MR RAMPTON: No, I do not want to say anything about any of
24them at the moment. I may have to come back to some of
25them in due course, but certainly not today. J8, my Lord,
26says Miss Rogers.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Could I mention something that I would like
2to do, I think probably first thing tomorrow morning, if
3that is convenient, and that is to have a look and see
4what the future timetable is looking like, as far as one
5can judge it. I would appreciate there are witnesses to
6be accommodated. We might need to discuss what topics
7need to be cross-examined to and possibly some do not need
9 MR RAMPTON: I agree.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: And timing generally.
11 MR RAMPTON: I mean, I quite agree with that. One reason, if
12I may respectfully say so, I would say it was a good idea
13to do it tomorrow is that today is a bit uncharted, I am
14chartered, but I do not know where my charts will lead me
15today. But there is also the very good question your
16Lordship has raised on how much more of Evans do I have to
17do? Of course, essentially, that is a question for me,
18subject to being told not to. There are only, I think,
19two big topics left in Evans, that is ReichsKristallnacht
20 -- three, ReichKristallnacht early anti-Semitism of
21Hitler with the Nuremberg rules and Dresden.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think there is another heading post
23Kirstallnacht, is there not?
24 MR RAMPTON: Yes, but that is all part of the same subject.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: All right.
26 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, can I mention something which I think
1I have mentioned before, which is this, that it would be
2convenient to us if we could have our reading day on
3Thursday rather than Friday of this week for the reason
4that Professor van Pelt has to go to Stockholm on
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: For a day or for a weekend?
7 MR RAMPTON: Only for a day. He is going in the morning and
8coming back in the afternoon, but there is a conference
9that he has been asked to attend and thinks that he
10should. So if we could possibly have ----
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not see any problem with that. Does
12that cause you any difficulty, Mr Irving?
13 MR IRVING: My Lord, we were going to call Dr John Fox as our
14expert witness on that day, but I can easily postpone him.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is very accommodating. Thank you. We
16will do that first thing Thursday morning, if that is all
17right with both of you? So we can now press on with
19 MR IRVING: My Lord, I am calling Mr Peter Miller as a witness
20tomorrow, but he will be relatively brief, I think, on the
21events in Moscow.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That raises a question that I have canvassed
23before. To what extent are we going to have to go through
24quite voluminous evidence on the Goebbels' diaries? To
25some extent I am in both of your hands. I have made no
26secret of the fact that whilst I understand, Mr Irving,
1your complaint about it, and I have seen the way the
2Defence is put, in the end is it a topic that we benefit
3by spending a very great deal of time on?
4 MR IRVING: On the Goebbels' diaries.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: On the Goebbels' diaries and the breach of
6the agreement or whatever it was.
7 MR IRVING: My Lord, I am accused of having breached agreements
8in Moscow. This is what I will certainly ask Peter Miller
9to evidence on.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is really in a way addressed to
11Mr Rampton as he will understand.
12 MR RAMPTON: There are really only two points left in Moscow.
13There is an admission that plates were removed without
14permission. The question, was there any significant risk
15they might be damaged? Second, how many plates? Now,
16whether that is more than about half an hour's
17cross-examination -- nothing more than that, I doubt.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, well and good. That is, I think, all
19it really merits, frankly.
20 MR RAMPTON: That is how I see it. There is the additional
21point, of course, that Moscow would be, if it fell
22anywhere in the case, a section 5 question.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what you say.
24 MR RAMPTON: That is what I believe, and it may be against
25everything else I will take a view (and it will be my
26decision) that it pales into insignificance.
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