Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 8: Electronic Edition

Pages 56 - 60 of 191

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    Yes, but are you criticising Beer's
 1assumption to be making; is that not right?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I completely agree with you.
 3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Do you follow the point I am putting to you?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I completely agree and you are absolutely right. There
 5are probably concessions have to be made at both ends of
 6this scale.
 7 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That may well be right, but let us focus on Leuchter's
 8assumption of the very high concentrate?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, you will see that in the bundle of correspondence
10which your Lordship has read only one item under No. 8,
11I wrote to all parties concerned saying: "Clearly, these
12criticisms I am now receiving have to be taken on board
13and we have to do something about it". Back came the
14objection from Mr Zundel: "This is a court affidavit
15which we cannot publish it in an altered form. We can
16only continue to publish it in the form as originally
17submitted". So we are at a slight -- over a bit of a
18barrel there. It is not as easy as your Lordship thinks.
19     The other point that I thought I had made is
20that the Leuchter report was intended to provoke precisely
21the discussion which we have succeeded in provoking at
22every level, including the scientific discussion.
23 MR RAMPTON:     But, Mr Irving, I am diverting slightly. I am
24coming back to Leichenkeller (1) in crematoria (ii) and
25(iii) in a moment. You have never ever publicly
26acknowledged the powerful -- no, I am going to use this --

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 1cogent, very cogent, critiques which you have received of
 2the Leuchter report?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Because, in the meantime, of course, Leuchter had been
 4replicated by other experts. At the very press conference
 5that you read excerpts out from, I was challenged on this
 6point, and I said, "If you don't like Leuchter's results,
 7go and do the tests yourself and prove that I am a
 8nincompoop", I think was the word I used.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Professor Markievitch did just that and did prove that you
10were a nincompoop, did he not?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Are you going to put his report in evidence to the court?
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is here.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Shall we say that when we get to it?
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, we will look at it. It is not done until 1994.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     There is also an earlier report conducted in 1945.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is in German and we are certainly going to look at
17that. That is the one from Cracow in December 1945. Go
18back to this question.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     And, of course, Gelmar Rudolf did a much more detailed
20scientific test.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am sure you will refer to that in your evidence at some
23 A. [Mr Irving]     It cannot be ignored. He is a qualified scientist. The
24only reason he did not get his doctorate was precisely
25because of coming up with politically incorrect findings
26on this matter.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, the fact is, though you evidently do not know
 2it, that the walls of Leichenkeller I and crematoria 2 and
 33 are not made of concrete at all.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     We are talk about the roof, the ceiling.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You are talking now about the roof, are you?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     The cyanide was not exactly selective about where it
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you agree with me that, if the concentration needed to
 9kill lice is 22 times greater than that needed to kill
10human beings -- I am not suggesting this is an exact
11proportion -- it is more likely that you will find 40
12years later or whatever it is, 50 years later, you will
13find residual traces of hydrogen cyanide in the delousing
14facility than you will in the supposed gas chamber?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     They carried out controlled tests on buildings where there
16had been no cyanide used whatsoever, not just in these
17camps but also in for example in Bavaria, and found
18exactly the same in significant levels.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think that that is an answer to the
20question at all.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Very well.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you want the question repeated?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     If those figures are correct, then obviously you would
24expect substantially more. This is correct, but you
25certainly would not expect nothing significant in the
26alleged homicidal gas chambers and that is what all the

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 1tests so far have established.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Would you please turn to tab 9 of this bundle? It
 3is a very short extract?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh, yes, Dr Roth.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Tell me who Dr Roth is?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Dr Roth was the forensic analyst who was employed by Ernst
 7Zundel's defence team to carry out the quantitative and
 8qualitative analysis of the 30 odd samples which were
 9brought back by Mr Leuchter from his visit to Auschwitz in
10February 1988.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you very much. Now I will read out what he said in
12a television----
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, you are assuming quite often more
14knowledge on my part than I possess. You are now looking
15at tab 9?
16 MR RAMPTON:     Tab 9, my Lord, Dr Roth.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I know nothing about Dr Roth at all.
18 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving has just said that he is the chemist in
19charge of the Leuchter analysis.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     He was the one who actually carried out the tests on the
21samples that Leuchter brought back.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He is the chemist from the independent
24 A. [Mr Irving]     In New England, yes. The Cornell University or something.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It does sometimes help me if I have a little
26more context. My Lord, this transcript is, I believe from

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 1the film Dr Death, Mr Death, so we do not know if it is a
 2complete transcript or not, but I accept for the purposes
 3that it is.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     This is what Dr Roth said when he was interviewed
 5for that programme, last year or something like that. He
 6said this:
 7     "I do not think that the Leuchter results have
 8any meaning. There is nothing in any of our data that
 9says those services were exposed or not. Hindsight being
1020/20, the test was not the correct one to have been used
11for the analysis. Leuchter presented us with rock samples
12anywhere from the side view of thumb up to half the size
13of your fist. He broke them up with a hammer so that we
14could get a subsample, placed it in a flask, add
15concentrated sulphuric acid and undergoes a reaction that
16produces a red coloured solution. It is the intensity of
17this red colour that we can relate with cyanide
18concentration. You have to look at what happens to
19cyanide when it reacts with a wall. Where does it go, how
20far goes it go? Cyanide is a surface reaction. It is
21probably not going to penetrate more than 10 microns. A
22human hair is 100 microns in diameter. Crush this sample
23up. I have just diluted that sample 10,000, 100,000
24times. If you are going to look for it, you are going to
25look on the surface face only. There is no reason to go
26deep because it is not going to be there. Which was the

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