Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 8: Electronic Edition

Pages 46 - 50 of 191

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    I will try to do a little of bit of history
 1there is a short bundle of correspondence, and I do not
 2know if your Lordship's pages are paginated?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, they are.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Mine are not. Then it is a letter which has 12th
 5January 1990 on it, page 12?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Page 12, yes. My Lord, this, of course, is not an agreed
 7bundle in any sense. We are just seeing the documents
 8that the Defence ----
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If there is any document in it that you for
10one reason or another challenge, then please say so.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     No, my Lord, but, of course, it is just a very loaded
12selection of documents. Of course, they have not put any
13documents that would support my case.
14 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     You have not seen this file until today?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Not until this morning, but I am quite happy to rest on
16these letters.
17 MR RAMPTON:     "Dear Mr Beer", you write on 12th January 1990,
18 "Thank you so much for sending me that anonymous treatise
19on the Leuchter report to which I wrote the introduction.
20Incidentally, that is all that I wrote. My involvement in
21the project is no larger than that" ----
22 A. [Mr Irving]     So why did you suggest that I had written the rest of the
23report?
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I did not. I wanted to know who had written the captions,
25Mr Irving?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     You wanted to know who wrote the report.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I know it is very tempting, but if
 2we chase every hare we are going to be here until ...
 3 MR RAMPTON:     And then you say this, Mr Irving: "I agree" -- we
 4will look at the criticisms in a moment -- "agree, in
 5fact, with many of your friends' criticisms and ascribe
 6most of the shortcomings to the fact that engineers, like
 7trade unionists, do not share the facility of expressing
 8themselves in English that writers and poets have. Having
 9said that, let me make a few general and specific
10points". Then I need not read the first three sentences,
11I think.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     I would rather you do.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I will if you want: "In October 1989, a follow up mission
14went to Auschwitz and brought back their findings in video
15form and they will shortly be published as a video.
16Again I have provided a German spoken introduction. The
17quality is magnificent and enables the viewer to see where
18somebody, the Poles(?) has attempted to falsify cavities,
19openings, etc. in the 'gas chambers' to make them accord
20with eye witness testimony".
21     Now this is the sentence that I am interested
22in: "I think your friends' strictures about the 3,200
23parts per million argument are right, but cannot agree
24that you should automatically go right to the other end of
25the scale 100 parts per million".
26     Mr Irving, that shows, does it not, that you

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 1knew perfectly well that Fred Leuchter's assumption that
 2the Nazis would have used a concentration of 3,200 parts
 3per million to kill their victims was a nonsense?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     No, not a nonsense, but probably not justified on the
 5figures.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now ----
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Not to go right to the other end of the scale.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It goes down to about 300, I agree. It does not go as far
 9as 100.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do I not need to see what the strictures
11were?
12 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. I am just going to show your Lordship. The
13best way, my Lord, of doing this -- it is at tab 5, my
14Lord -- maybe the best way of dealing with this, because
15it is quite important, I would suggest ----
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I can understand it is.
17 MR RAMPTON:     --- that your Lordship reads the whole of it.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The critique?
19 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     And this letter to Mr Beer, please.
21 MR RAMPTON:     And the whole of the letter to Mr Beer as well,
22I quite agree with that, because it will save time when
23I then come back because I can ask ----
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you want me to do that now?
25 MR RAMPTON:     I think it would help before I start asking
26questions about it because your Lordship will only find

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 1that I am jumping too far ahead. It will take quite a
 2little bit of time. Whether your Lordship would like to
 3leave court for five minutes?
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I suspect that there would be some who would
 5welcome that. Perhaps I shall. It should not take up
 6more than five minutes.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     It should not, but it is not something to skim, if
 8I may say so?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     I agree. If your Lordship will also pay attention to the
10marginal notes in the left-hand margin of the critique?
11They are handwritten notes by me at the time.
12 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, that, certainly. Unfortunately, mine have
13been cut off.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think they have been cut off.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     I can just very rapidly say at the first page it says
16"totally untrue"; the second page it says "vernouwi
17effect" which is something in liquid dynamics; the third
18page says "this is a bit too pretty" -- these are my
19comments -- then "important" I have underlined and then
20"no", I cannot read the next one.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     When did you put those comments on?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     The day I received it, my Lord.
23 MR RAMPTON:     Is there another "important" on the fifth page?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, I have no idea what they refer to. I just...
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Against paragraph 7 in a bracket on page 5, I cannot make
26anything of that. Mine has a hole punched through it

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 1apart from anything else. This small handwriting.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I very probably then quoted it in my letter to
 3Mr Beer because that is what I appear to have done.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     All I can see is an exclamation mark.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I will go and read it. It will probably take
 6me between five and 10 minutes.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Shall we come back at 10 to 12?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I will let you know.
 9 (The court adjourned for a short time)
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have read the critique and the letter to
11Mr Beer.
12 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I am grateful. Then, Mr Irving, I need
13only ask this, I hope. That report sent to you by
14Mr Colin Beer, I think it was, at the beginning of January
151990 was, in fact, a demolition of the Leuchter report,
16was it not?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     He calls it a critique. It is not an extermination or
18even an annihilation. It is a critique.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Fundamentally flawed?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, fundamentally flawed. I will read the last
22paragraph of his conclusions. "The evidence of the
23Leuchter report when taken in the context of the times and
24in full consideration of all other evidence is consistent
25with that other evidence and together strongly supports
26both the fact and scale of the massacres in the gas

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