Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 8: Electronic Edition

Pages 41 - 45 of 191

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    It goes on: "In the absence of any consequential readings
 1the samples taken from the alleged gas chambers because of
 2the greater amount of gas alleged to be utilized there
 3than that found in the controlled samples. Since the
 4contrary is true, one must conclude that these facilities
 5were not execution chambers when coupled with all the
 6other evidence gained on inspection."
 7     Leave it there, will you, for the moment?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I ask this question because we are
 9plundering into this and I do need to, sort of, understand
10the big picture. Is this the passage which struck you
11when you first saw the affidavit which led you to have
12your change of mind?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     The statistical table, quite simply, the contrast between
14the enormous quantities in the delousing chamber and the
15infinitesimally insignificant quantities in the alleged
16homicidal gas chambers where, allegedly, 500,000 people
17had been gassed to death.
18 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     My question is whether it is the text or whether ----
19 A. [Mr Irving]     It is.
20 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     --- it is the tables. This is the bit of the report
21which ----
22 A. [Mr Irving]     The argument, I would say, rather than the actual bit of
23the report. When you come away, having looked at that,
24you say, well, if those are the figures, if that is the
25argument, I am wow'd by it, I am impressed, because, as
26I said in my introduction, that is an exact science we are

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 1talking about. We do not have to read between the lines
 2of German documents and try to look for euphemisms.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, before we go back to the Leuchter
 4report, just so there shall not be any doubt about what
 5you have been saying since it came out, this is merely one
 6example, there are about at least a dozen, maybe 20, if we
 7turn to tab 20 of the third of these new files?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I can quite simply right now my position has remained
 9unchanged from that day to this on precisely these
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Despite the fact that you have communicated reservations
12about this question, in particular, to your friends,
13Mr Zundel and Mr Weber, a consequence of having received
14critical reports from outside people?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     The critical reports, if my memory is correct, were
16relating to Mr Leuchter's other rather superfluous
17calculations, like how many people can fit into one square
18metre, and this kind of calculation which I thought
19detracted from the ----
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, be careful.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We are going to look at what Mr Beer, for example, wrote
23to you in January 1990 in a moment.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, we are looking at a letter written 10 years ago.
25I am quite happy to be surprised by what I wrote then.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, Mr Irving. In 1995 at Tampa, Florida, for example,

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 1you were as categorical in your dependence on
 2Mr Leuchter's findings as to the relative amounts of
 3residues as you ever have been?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     And I still am.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Despite having known that they were rubbish?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I still am. My position on the significance, the global
 7significance, of those discrepancies between the residues
 8is the same now as it was then and I will be justifying
 9this when the time comes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you please take the first of those files, Auschwitz
11files, and it is in the same file as the Leuchter report
12which we are going to come back to in a moment, and turn
13to tab 5?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We are leaving the Leuchter now?
15 MR RAMPTON:     No, this is all to do with the Leuchter. My Lord,
16what I am interested in is not the objective value of the
17Leuchter report, which I hope we need not go into in this
18court -- we may have to -- but Mr Irving's treatment of it
19in the light of the knowledge which he had and which is
20itself contained in the report to which I am coming back,
21but only for that purpose.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     His position is really very simple, is it
23not? It is this particular aspect of the report which
24caused him to engage in what you have described as the
25volte-face, and he maintains that position. So, in a
26sense, his position could not be more sharply defined.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     He knows it is wrong.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is the point, obviously, that needs to
 3be pursued.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     He knows there is a whole lot else wrong with this
 5report. He knows, for example, the densities in the gas
 6chambers is wrong.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That may or not be an issue; I suspect not.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     The what in the gas chambers?
 9 MR RAMPTON:     The density of people in the gas chambers.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh, the density of people.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Leuchter's assumptions about that are complete rubbish,
12are they not?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, of course, this is precisely one thing that
14I challenged in my correspondence behind the scenes with
15people saying, "He is wrong on this and we have got to
16watch that he does not" ----
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you ever made that statement publicly before today?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     No, because that was not the crucial element of the
19Leuchter on which I relied. The crucial element is the
20scientific findings. As I say, chemistry is an exact
21science; you cannot get round it. The courts are
22convicting people the whole time on the basis of
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, Mr Irving. Sometimes they are. It is not quite as
25exact as you may think, I think. However, that s beside
26the point. Chemistry is an exact science. You get small

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 1residues, or you call them insignificant, traces in the
 2gas chambers remains and much bigger traces in the
 3delousing remains. That is the position, is it not?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     That is the position.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have known that all along?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, and it has been confirmed by subsequent tests, even
 7by the Poles.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, I know that. They found that out and Professor
 9Markievitch found it out in 1994. You know that?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     He did not actually carry out the tests himself. He had
11others carry out the tests.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now please turn to ----
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Tab 6 or tab 5 did you say?
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I think it is tab 5.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     "Critique of forensic examinations".
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This you received -- I am just checking the date of the
17letter you wrote to Mr Weber, 12th January 1990?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You write actually to Mr Beer, from Florida, and you say:
20 "Dear Mr Beer, thank you so much for sending me that
21anonymous treatise on the Leuchter report"?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, Mr Rampton, I was distracted.
23Where are you now? I thought you said you were tab 5.
24 MR RAMPTON:     I will try to do a little of bit of history
25first. If it is not the way round, then it makes sense,
26perhaps, to do it chronologically. In tab 8, my Lord,

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