Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 8: Electronic Edition
Pages 36 - 40 of 191
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1 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] "31 samples were selectively removed from the alleged gas
3chambers (plural) at Kramers 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5, a control
4sample was taken from delousing facility no 1 at
5Birkenau ". Let us not have any more of this nonsense
6that, when you talk about the gas chambers at Auschwitz
7and the value of Mr Leuchter's report, you are talking
8simply about the reconstructed gas chamber at Auschwitz.
9 A. [Mr Irving] I never said that. On the contrary, this is exactly what
10I have denied saying. We are referring to all the
11buildings which are now claimed to have been gas chambers,
12from which these samples were taken.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton] If you look at the next paragraph, while we have it open
14and I shall not have to come back to it, you write in
15bold, or it is printed in bold under your imprint: "The
16control sample was removed from any delousing chamber in a
17location where cyanide was known to have been used and
18was apparently present as blue staining. The chemical
19testing of control sample No. 32 showed a cyanide content
20of 1,050 milligram per kilogram, a very heavy
21concentration". Perfectly right.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: And sample No. 32 is the one taken from the
23Birkenhau delousing facility. Is that right?
24 MR RAMPTON: Yes. When Professor van Pelt gives evidence, he
25will make it a good deal clearer but, if your Lordship
26looks at page 26 of this report, this time the page is on
1the left hand corner, there is a plan of Birkenhau at the
2bottom of the page. On the right-hand side of that plan
3is a key and F in the key is delousing facility No. 1,
4where Mr Leuchter says he found concentration of over
51,000 milligrams per kilogram of some kind of cyanide
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is bottom left.
8 MR RAMPTON: Exactly. That is the building known as BW 5A. It
9is a brick building and it is in what became the women's
10part of the camp at Birkenau. It is there to this day.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is on your case the first gas chamber?
12 MR RAMPTON: No, it is not a gas chamber at all. That is a
13delousing facility. If your Lordship wants to look at
14where the gas chambers are, they are K 2 on the left-hand
15side and K 3, and then in the middle of the page towards
16the top there is K 4 and K 5.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have not found K 2 and K 3.
18 MR RAMPTON: On the left, my Lord, you see the compass.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Up there yes, I see.
20 MR RAMPTON: If one goes southeast of the compass, they are
21side by side, either side of the railway track.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is all Birkenhau?
23 MR RAMPTON: This is all Birkenhau, as it says in the bottom
24left hand corner.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, sorry. That was my enquiry.
26 MR RAMPTON: Your Lordship should ignore the little (f) at the
1top of the page. That is not Mr Leuchter's (f). That is
2an (f) from the original plan and that is a separate
3delousing facility that was built in 1944, and which was
4hardly used in the Zyklon bay at all, mostly steam
5autoclaves as are shown in the front of the report.
6 Then I will read on, if I may, Mr Irving, on
7page 15: "The conditions and areas from which these
8samples were taken are identical with those of the
9controlled sample, cold dark and wet. Only Kramers 4 and
105 differed in the respect that these locations had
11sunlight, the buildings had been torn down, and sunlight
12may hasten the destruction of uncomplex cyanide. The
13cyanide in the mortar and brick becomes ferro-cyanide or
14Prussian blue pigment, a very stable iron cyonide
16 Are you aware of the errors in that paragraph,
18 A. [Mr Irving] I am not a chemical expert.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] Are you aware of the errors in the description of the
20state of the buildings?
21 A. [Mr Irving] No.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton] Then he says the locations from which the analysed samples
23were removed are set out in table 3.
24 A. [Mr Irving] If you are going to say there are errors, perhaps you
25ought to explain to the court what the errors are.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] No, Mr Irving. If you do not know what they are?
1 A. [Mr Irving] You just claimed there were errors.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, there are errors. Van Pelt's report is full of errors
3identified, for example, crematoria 2 and 3 are open to
4the skies, the ruins.
5 A. [Mr Irving] I have very big photographs taken recently of those
6crematoria which I will show to the court this afternoon,
7if the court pleases.
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] That is fine, Mr Irving. They are open to the skies.
9They were blown up in early 1935 just before the Russians
10got there. They are ruins. The delousing facility BW 5A
11in the women's camp is a perfectly intact building with a
12roof on it.
13 A. [Mr Irving] I beg to differ. The morgue No. 1 of crematorium II may
14have been blown up but it is intact inasmuch as the roof
15just pancaked downwards and it is possible to crawl
16underneath the roof, which is what I believe Mr Leuchter
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] What about crematorium III? He took samples there too,
19did he not?
20 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] Look what he found. "It is notable that almost all the
22samples were negative and that the few that were positive
23were very close to the detection level, one milligram" --
24he has misprinted printed this, it is not KP but KG --
25"per KG, 6.7 milligrams per K G at Kramer 3, 7.9
26milligrams per kilogram at Kramer 1", that is in the old
1camp, Auschwitz I.
2 A. [Mr Irving] "Close to the detection level" means of no significance,
3in other words no statistical significance.
4 Q. [Mr Rampton] I thought you were not a scientist?
5 A. [Mr Irving] You asked me what I know about ferro-cyanides and
6uncomplex cyanide compounds. I am afraid I am way out of
7my depth there.
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] You know it is wrong that it is very stable, do you not?
9 A. [Mr Irving] Ferro-cyanide is so stable that it is used as a dye stuff,
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] Not if it is exposed to the elements over a period of 40
13 A. [Mr Irving] We will produce photographs to the court to show just how
14stable it is.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] It goes on: "In the absence of any consequential readings
16at any of the tested locations as compared with the
17controlled sample reading of 1050 milligrams per kilogram
18supports the evidence that these facilities were not
19execution gas chambers. The small quantities detected
20would indicate that at some point these building were
21deloused with Zyklon bay as were all the buildings at
22these facilities. Additionally, the areas of blue
23staining show a high iron content indicated ferro cyanide
24no longer hydrogen cyanide." Then in italics in bold,
25which we have seen before but I will just read it again
26now, "One would have expected higher cyanide detection in
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