Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 8: Electronic Edition

Pages 31 - 35 of 191

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is copyright?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     David Irving. You start: "Unlike the writing of history
 5chemistry is an exact science", yes?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am not going to read the whole of it by any manner of
 8means. There are only some small parts that I need for
 9this purpose.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I rely on the whole Foreword and not just on the parts you
11are going to read.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Rely on me to read them.
13 MR RAMPTON:     Ask his Lordship to read it, but I am not going to
14read it all out. It is a waste of the court's time and of
15my vocal chords. If you go please to the first column,
16five paragraphs down, you write this: "Nobody like to be
17swindled, still less where considerable sums of money are
18involved (since 1949 the state of Israel has received over
1990 billion deutschemarks in voluntary reparations from
20West Germany, essentially in atonement for the "gas
21chambers of Auschwitz)". Gas chambers in plural. Then
22you go on: "This myth will not die easily."
23     Then you go on about how it was an ingenious
24plan invented by the PWE during the war. Please go to the
25next column, second paragraph. I will start at the first
26paragraph first complete paragraph:

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 1     "Yet I have to admit" -- this is you
 2Mr Irving -- "that it would never have occurred to me to
 3subject the actual fabric of the Auschwitz concentration
 4camp and its "gas chambers" - the holiest shrines of this
 5new 20th century religion - to chemical tests to see if
 6there was any trace of cyanide compounds in the walls.
 7The truly astonishing results are as set out in this
 8report: While significant quantities of cyanide compounds
 9were found in the small delousing facilities of the camp,
10whether proprietary and lethal compounds were used, as all
11are agreed, to disinfect the plague ridden clothing of all
12persons entering these brutal slave labour camps, no
13significant trace whatsoever was found in the buildings
14which international opinion - for it is not more than that
15-- as always labelled as the camps' infamous gas
16chambers. Nor, as the report's gruesomely expert author
17makes plain, could the design and construction of those
18buildings have made their use as mass gas chambers
19feasible under any circumstances".
20     Then in the next paragraph you write that you
21have reservations about his methodology, but they are
22reservations which you quickly, if I may suggest,
23abandon. You end the paragraph: "The video tapes made
24simultaneously by the team - which I have studied -
25provide compelling visual evidence of the scrupulous
26methods that they use". Then you finish up: "Until the

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 1end of this tragic century there will always be
 2incorrigible historians, statesmen and publicists, who are
 3content to believe, or have no economically viable
 4alternative but to believe, that the Nazis used "gas
 5chambers" at Auschwitz to kill human beings. But it is
 6now up to them to explain to me as an intelligent and
 7critical student of modern history why there is no
 8significant trace of any cyanide compound in the building
 9which they have always identified as the former gas
11 A. [Mr Irving]     "The building" is in the singular.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sorry, "in the building which they always identified as
13the former gas chambers. Forensic chemistry is, I repeat,
14an exact science. The ball is in their court."
15     Mr Irving, just so that we do not get tangled up
16in singular or plural gas chambers, please turn quickly to
18 A. [Mr Irving]     You rather skated over the paragraph, of course, in which
19I drew attention to the flaws in the report.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You can draw attention that in your re-examination,
21Mr Irving.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but several days will pass between now and then.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am trying to make progress.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is a reference to the sentence where you
25say you prefer to have seen more rigorous methods used in
26identifying and so on?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Indeed, my Lord. I accept already at this time that the
 2report is flawed.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     As will you see, Mr Irving, as time goes by, your
 4reservations seem to vanish into thin air.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Completely the opposite. If you read the correspondence
 6in this very bundle which you put before the court, there
 7are letters between me and Mr Zundel and other people
 8saying that engineers have now drawn attention to the
 9serious flaws in the Leuchter report, and we have to
10address them.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We are going to look at that. The point is this,
12Mr Irving.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     My reservations did not vanish.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What you say privately to people like Mark Weber and Ernst
15Zundel is quite different from what you say publicly.
16That is my point and this is where we are going to go
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Good.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You say publicly that which you know to be untrue about
20the value of the Leuchter report.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     In the meantime, of course, we have other reports to back
22up the original conclusions of the Leuchter report.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not let us get distracted. You have made
24your point about the flaws in the methodology.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 MR RAMPTON:     Just so we do not have any more confusion about

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 1this at all, had you read this version of the Leuchter
 2report when you wrote your introduction?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     No. I had read, of course, the original affidavit, the
 4full length affidavit of which this is a precis.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Had you read this version of the Leuchter report before
 6your press conference in June 1989?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     No. Why should I read the abridged version when I had
 8already read the full version length version?
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Because you are the publisher, Mr Irving. It is a very
10short document.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry to disappoint you, but that does not
12necessarily follow. I had read the original one inch
13thick version.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Just look on page 15.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Had I attended in greater detail to this, there are
16certain things that I would not have tolerated, for
17example the sideways printing I would not have liked,
18things like that.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Just look at page 15 of this version of the Leuchter
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which is published by you in the right hand column under
23the heading "Forensic considerations of HCN cyanide
24compounds..." in the bottom right hand corner.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Look at the second paragraph.

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