Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 8: Electronic Edition

Pages 26 - 30 of 191

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Very well. I will just tell you for the sake of record.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Clearly, he would not just have put in this unusual
 3parentheses just because she is talking about a house of
 4prostitution. It was well known at that time that there
 5were brothels in all the SS concentration camps camp, in
 6Dachau and everywhere else they had brothels for the use
 7of the prisoners. This was well known at Nuremberg, so he
 8certainly would not have put that in brackets "this
 9I doubt" at that point. That refers to what he has heard
10up to this point.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Even now, Mr Irving, you will not or cannot read the words
12in front of you. Actually the sentence which precedes the
13parenthesis is "all camps used the same system", is it
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, and it might well have been a reference
16to that.
17 MR RAMPTON:     Exactly.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     It might well have been, but that was not my reading of
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Anyway ----.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     On the basis of my knowledge of the Biddle papers and on
22the basis of this particular one.
23 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, Mr Irving. Just for completeness, your diary
24tells us that you were in Syracuse on August 11th 1988,
25you made this entry, "worked at Syracuse University all
26day, very hot, private papers yielded little but the

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 1Nuremberg trials collection of Judge Francis Biddle had
 2some gems, including his diary (with comments of I do not
 3believe) comments you put in the plural, on one
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     That clearly shows that I took that as being a reference
 6to all his comment and not just the previous comment. I
 7am indebted to you for pointing out exactly when I saw it,
 8which was a few days before this which means I was
 9carrying those index cards with me at the time I went to
10this lecture.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     On that occasion in Toronto in the press conference, in
12London the following year and in your Nuremberg book, you
13told a lie about what the notes said, did you not?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     The difference clearly is that in Toronto, I have driven
15up from Syracuse to Toronto probably two or three days
16later and made the speech with the cards in front of me,
17whereas at the Leuchter press conference I am giving the
18sense of it from memory, and that is clearly the sense, as
19I have told the court, I had from that comment made by
20Judge Biddle in his own private papers. Listening to this
21witness with her incredible stories about beating machines
22and all the rest of it, he writes down in brackets "this
23I doubt". Frankly, I do not think there is very much
24mileage to be made out of that.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now we are going to go to Leuchter, Mr Irving. If you put
26that file on one side, I am coming back to it in a moment,

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 1the file of what you said about Leuchter. Before I do
 2that, I would like you to look at the Leuchter report
 3itself, which is the first divider in the first Auschwitz,
 4file K 1. It has a cover and an inside page headed Ernst
 5Zundel. Have you got that?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     At the bottom of the page you write what the cover
 8pictures are, because there are four of them.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     You are stating that I wrote this?
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not know who wrote this.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     I am the publisher of this, not the writer of it.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Who writes the information?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     I wrote the introduction.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     About what the pictures represent?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So this is not the report submitted to the
16Canadian court?
17 MR RAMPTON:     No. I do not believe I need to use that if I have
18Mr Irving's own published version.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not being critical. I am just trying to
20ensure that I know what I am looking at.
21 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know if I have ever seen that.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     You have. It has been in the discovery and it is very
23much more comprehensive than this.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That does not mean that I have seen it, Mr Irving. This is
25published by Focal Point Publications, London, June 1989.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. The notice said published by, not written by.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     My question was, do you see that in effect on the inside
 2page somebody has provided captions for the cover pictures
 3under the line at the bottom of the page? It is not very
 4easy to read.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     On the inside page?
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. That is right. There is a picture of some machinery
 7I think, by the look of things.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Which page are you on now?
 9 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, there is a cover and on the next page
10there is a picture of what looks like machinery. Cameras.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Cameras, yes. It is Monday morning!
12 MR RAMPTON:     I know it is Monday. This is a rotten copy. It
13could be anything. It could be a sheep shearing station?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Or a beating machine.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us get on.
16 MR RAMPTON:     The line at the bottom of the page, underneath of
17the line are provided captions for the cover pictures on
18the front cover. What I ask you is who wrote those
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You do not?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     It was not me.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, you published this thing.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     There is a distinction between publishers and authors.
25I explained it to you.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I know that, but a publisher normally has to organise the

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 1printing of the pictures. He has to make sure that the
 2pictures are properly identified and he usually knows who
 3does it, does he not?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     For purposes of this court, it would satisfy you if I say
 5on oath that I did not write that, surely?
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Not necessarily, no, Mr Irving. Look at the one in the
 7bottom right hand corner.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     The picture?
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. First of all, caption. It says bottom right that an
10actual fumigating chamber was used to delouse inmates'
12 A. [Mr Irving]     You have lost me, I am afraid.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have lost me too.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     You have lost us both.
15 MR RAMPTON:     Then I will have to come back to it the copy you
16have is not the copy that I have. It is on Mr Julius's
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Maybe I am looking in the wrong place, but
19I do not think I have it.
20 MR RAMPTON:     I just want to make sure the Foreword is the same
21before we get completely --
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think there is any problem about
23that. It is about six pages in. Foreword by David
24Irving. Have you got the Foreword now?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 MR RAMPTON:     You wrote the Foreword, it appears, in May 1989?

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