Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 8: Electronic Edition

Pages 21 - 25 of 191

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    What they were now talking about was the SS distributed
 1in these five pages and you have been very careful not to
 2read out the five page so that people can hear exactly how
 3ludicrous this witness's statement was, as we now know
 4with hindsight.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Give us one other example. The machine for
 6beating you have described. Just so that I have the
 7flavour of it.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Dogs tore at their legs and killed, set on by SS guards,
 9corpses in the courtyard, a hand or head would now and
10then stir in the corpses seeking to free itself, the heap
11moaned from morn till night in all languages "Water
12water", huge rats everywhere, and so on. I think there is
13a reason why the judge is dictating this kind of
14material: In order to get the flavour of what this
15witness is saying. He finally then writes down "(this
16I doubt)".
17 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, I simply cannot accept that.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     This is frankly why I think eyewitness evidence is so
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, maybe you do, Mr Irving. I am not on about
21eyewitness. I am on about a deliberate distortion of what
22the text of Judge Biddle's note actually says.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I agree and I concede, for what it is worth, that what
24I said in the press conference, no doubt four or five
25years after reading Judge Biddle's notes, or possibly even
26ten years after I read Judge Biddle's notes, I cannot

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 1remember precisely when I saw the papers.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What about what you said here in the picture caption?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     About the credibility of the witness?
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I think that is absolutely justified. If he says that he
 6doubts her, then ipso facto her credibility has been
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Would you turn back to tab 2 in the third of those files,
 9the same files as you have the Leuchter press conference?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is page 18. My Lord, this is a speech at Toronto in
12August 1988. Turn to page 18, please.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     I cannot see any pagination.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Bottom of the page?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Tab 2. Are you in the right tab?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     I am in the right tab but there is no pagination in mine.
17However --
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you in the right volume?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     It is the district court of Ontario.
20 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry about this. Tab 2, page 18. It is
21Toronto August 1988.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     What is the page number?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is the wrong file.
24 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry, Mr Irving, it is the same file as the
25one from the Leuchter press conference.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Now we have it.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Before we look at this, Mr Irving, tell me when you went
 2to Syracuse, as you call it.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I would have to look at my notes to see precisely when
 4I went to Syracuse in fact on two or three occasions.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You wrote to us on 21 December 1999. You said -- my
 6Lord, this is inter partes correspondence --
 7"I originally read Judge Biddle's papers at Syracuse in
 8about 1988"?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Off the top of my head, that may have been correct.
10I went to Syracuse two or three times because they have
11many collections of papers there.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So, when you are speaking at the Leuchter press conference
13in 1989, that is not more than a year after you have seen
14the notes, is it?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     In that event, yes, but I will come back with further and
16better information, if you want to know the exact date.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This speech in Toronto which I am now asking you to look
18at, was made in August 1988?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And on page 18 you say this. Actually, we had better
21start on page 17 because this may be important. Can you
22read, please, from about the beginning of the second
23quarter of the page, there is a sentence: "Let me just
24read out the kind of material that was given in the
25witness box in Nuremberg". Then you mention Judge
26Biddle. Have you got that on page 17?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Would you read to yourself please, not out loud if you do
 3not mind, all of the rest of that page and down to the end
 4of the first complete paragraph on page 18?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     (Pause for reading) Yes. I clearly had my notes in front
 6of me when I was saying this.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You give some sort of an account of many things about
 8which the French lady testified.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You finish that account with the piece about the
11prostitution, and then you say: "Here Judge Biddle writes
12in brackets in his diary 'all this I doubt'. Why did he
13not say it at the time, for heavens sake but he just sat
14there with his face motionless because he is an American
15judge, but in his private diary he writes", you repeat it,
16 "all this I doubt", and so it goes on, and I am not going
17to read the rest of it.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Right. I had my notes in front of me.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is not what Judge Biddle said, is it?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     But I am just stating quite clearly I had my notes in
21front of me when I was making this statement, and I added
22the word "all", but I would aver that that is precisely
23what I said in my earlier statement, that he has clearly
24referred to all that has gone before.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but he did not say that.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     He did not say that, my Lord.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     Do you not see the difference between "all this
 2I doubt" which I quite agree with you might certainly have
 3reference to the evidence given to date by that lady, and
 4the words "this I doubt" in parenthesis against a single
 5statement in a single paragraph?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     This is precisely what I said in my previous statement.
 7My conclusion from reading his diary was that he was
 8referring to the foregoing, all these incredible stories
 9which are here listed in summary form in my speech about
10the baby saying, "can I walk now I have had my leg torn
11off?" and all this kind of thing.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am going to suggest to you that you made that speech in
13Toronto on the same visit to North America as when you
14first saw the Biddle notes.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     No. I think from the way it is constructed, the fact that
16the passages in my speech here follow closely at first
17glimpse anyway the actual notes that I typed on to the
18index cards that I clearly had the index cards in front of
19me when I was making this statement.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You distorted what they said, did you not.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I added the word "all" to make it more literate for an
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, you added the word "all"?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     This is not a distortion of what my own perception was of
25that paragraph, that he was clearly referring to all the

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