Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 8: Electronic Edition

Pages 181 - 185 of 191

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Will you turn please to the last page of that letter?
 3Remember that the date is 30th October 1989.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Look at the first paragraph on that last page: "Some time
 6ago you mentioned that we might be willing to contribute a
 7Foreword to my book conditional upon reading the
 8manuscript and, even though you are now working on a book
 9of your own about Auschwitz and our work may therefore
10overlap somewhat, I hope that you are still willing to
11consider contributing a Foreword. I like to think that
12all the thoughtful and well documented revisionist work is
13mutually beneficial and a boost to the overall cause".
14Now, Mr Irving, were you working on a book about Auschwitz
15in October 1989?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why did Mr Weber think that you were?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know. In October 1989 I was working -- let me
19think -- I had just delivered the new edition of Hitler's
20War, I was almost certainly working on the Herman Goring
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     May I suggest that Mr Weber said what he did because
23either you or somebody else on your behalf had told him
24that you were working on a book on Auschwitz?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, your instructing solicitors have had complete
26access to all my files, including my entire private

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 1diaries. If you had found any evidence that I was working
 2on a book about Auschwitz, I am sure you would have had it
 3before the court.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I did not say that you were, Mr Irving. You notice
 5I tried to choose my words carefully.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     You were strongly suggesting.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- that somebody had told him, perhaps you, that you were?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Perhaps.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     That is not evidence. As I say, you have had complete
11access to all my private records.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It would be evidence, Mr Irving, if you had told Mr Weber
13that, would it not? Not that you were doing it, but that
14you said that you were doing it.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I cannot quite see why he should, myself?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     He does not say even though you said you are now working
17on a book. But I can only repeat, had you found any
18evidence of this in my private diaries or telephone logs
19or papers, I am sure you would have had it before the
21 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, the Leuchter report came to your
22knowledge in August 1988, did it not?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     April 1988.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I beg your pardon, April 1988. When did you first make an
25attempt to look at any of the archive documents, whether
26in Auschwitz or in Moscow?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     I cannot tell you off the top of my head, but certainly,
 2when I went to the national archives in Washington,
 3I would have read more intensively in the papers of
 4Heinrich Himmler or the SS and, when I went to any other
 5places, for example the Public Record Office, I started
 6also paying more attention to Auschwitz at that time.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     When was that?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, again I cannot, I have been to the Public Record
 9Office in London probably 50 or 100 times.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You were going in August '89 I think, '88, and you said,
11I do not know what this is from, this is a speech in
13     "I am going to visit in this four-month swing
14around the entire United States, East Coast and West
15Coast, probably about 40 different Government and private
16archives on various projects, and everywhere I go I am
17looking into the archives to see what they have got on
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Now what was to prevent you making a similar trip to
21Poland at that time?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     1988?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In 1988.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     It was behind the Iron Curtain.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So what?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     The Iron Curtain had not come down.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Humble Mr Pressac got there in '82, '83. Professor van
 2van Pelt was there in 1990.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but you seem to forget I am not a Holocaust
 4historian. I have to keep on reminding you of this. I am
 5an historian of the top Nazis. I write about Goring and
 6Hitler and Rommel and Hess. To do that you do not have to
 7go to Auschwitz. I read Professor van Pelt's book with
 8enormous interest as a book. One of the first books I
 9read from cover to cover.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is where I thought we were going to get to. So the
11fact that in due course you would have been unable to go
12to Auschwitz because of a ban, is quite beside the point.
13You never had any intention of doing so, did you?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I never had any need to go there. I am not a Holocaust
15historian for the hundredth time.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then, may I suggest, that it was wholly improper of you to
17give Leuchter such a high profile, given your supposed
18position as an historian of repute?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think so. You say "high profile", how many lines
20of each speech did I deliver? Shall I do a calculation
21tonight of how many per cent, what fraction of 1 per cent
22of my speeches concern Mr Leuchter over the last ten
23years? I would suggest it is less than 1 per cent. You
24have read out just the lines dealing with him.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, Mr Irving.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     His Lordship has in front of him the entire bundle and he

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 1can see how very low he barked on my horizon.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, Mr Irving, it will not do. You actually went to the
 3trouble of publishing your own glossy version of the
 4Leuchter report nine months, no more, over a year after
 5the Zundel trial, and of announcing its birth to the world
 6with a press conference?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, what is the point of that?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     I think it produced an extremely valuable stimulus to the
10entire research community. Without the Leuchter report
11there would have been none of these in depth
12investigations in archeological tests and searches and so
13on. It has been an extremely useful report in that
14respect. That is why I said in the introduction, I said
15the ball is now in their court. It is very much intended
16as stimulus to further research.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Without your having taken the least trouble to investigate
18the question yourself?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I am a publisher in this respect.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Oh, in this guise you are a publisher. You are only an
21historian when it comes to Adolf Hitler and that sort of
22thing, is that right?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think I actually said that. Certainly you asked
24me about the Leuchter report and I acted as the
25publisher. I was not the author. You have seen the
26letters in which I say I did not write a single line of

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