Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 8: Electronic Edition

Pages 171 - 175 of 191

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    Well, it is in the first person. I dare say, I do not
 1immediately the gassing procedure
 2vergassungsforgang commenced". Is that after some 20 to
 330 minutes, complete silence in the gas chambers, people
 4were vergassed?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     He is probably accurate. He is probably describing
 6something that really happened there.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is the same formation, is it not, vergassungswagen we
 8see with Eichmann at the top of the page? We notice
 9Wetzel's vergassungsakavater earlier.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     There is no other way you could describe gassing procedure
11except by the German phrase vergassungsforgang.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then we come to Dayaco and Eiffel, who were tried, I think
13in ----
14 A. [Mr Irving]     1972. I believe I am right in saying that they were both
15aquitted, oddly enough, were they not?
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I believe that they were acquitted.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     So obviously the court did not pay much attention to this
18kind of evidence. They had the chance of cross-examining
19the witnesses.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We should take precedent from that, should we, Mr Irving?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Certainly, if they hear the same witnesses. We do not
22have the chance of cross-examining these witnesses that
23you are giving to me now, but if the court in Vienna
24acquitted Dayaco and Eiffel, who were the architects of
25Auschwitz, they were acquitted and set free. They had had
26the chance of cross-examining these witnesses. Surely

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 1that should say something to you about the value of the
 2testimony they gave.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It says nothing to me at all because I do not know the
 4reason why they were acquitted.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     They were acquitted because they were innocent.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There are all sorts of reasons why people can be
 7acquitted. If you are anxious to find out the answer to
 8why they were acquitted, you can ask Professor van Pelt.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     I know why they were acquitted. I know their case quite
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You see, it says both Dayaco and Eiffel, testifying during
12their trial in 1972, used the term "gassing spaces"
13vergassungsraume to denote gas chambers. You can see that
14that is so if you turn back -- I am sorry it is such a
15long journey -- to page 341 of the same report, my Lord.
16Would your Lordship at the same time find it convenient to
17turn up this document? It is in the same file. You might
18do the same, Mr Irving. In the smaller of the two
19Auschwitz files, the second one, there is a document at
20page 2 to which this part of the text of van Pelt refers.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     The smaller of the two Auschwitz files at page 2?
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Tab 4, sorry, yes. Tab 4, page 2. It is in the same set
23of originals.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     The same document.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Just so that, if you want to, you can look at the original

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I draw attention to the brief number on that document,
 2handwritten number?
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not say these things just to be pig headed about
 5documents arousing my suspicion.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     At the top of page 341 of van Pelt we see this: "On August
 719th 1942 Eiffel chaired a meeting in which members of the
 8Central Construction Office discussed with engineer Kurt
 9Brufer of Topf and sons the creation of four crematoria in
10Birkenhau. Item 2 mentioned the construction of two
11triple oven incinerators near the bath houses for special
13     If you look over at the other document, the
14original German document, it is in paragraph 2 on the
15first page, first sentence, is it not?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Could you read out what it says in German?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     [German spoken- document not provided].
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I am sorry, I meant translated.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     With regard to the erection of two each three muffle
21furnaces at the bath house for special actions we propose
22Engineer Brufer suggested ----
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That will do.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Taking the furnaces ----
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In fact as you see, if you look at the end of the
26memorandum, what in fact in the end they decided on was

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 1I think two four muffle ovens?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What were sonderhaktiernun, do you think, Mr
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Notice that the word [German spoken - document not
 6provided] are in quotes in the original, are they not?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am going to ask you a question about that in a moment,
 9go back to the text of van Pelt the top of 341, if you
10will. "Item 2 mentions the construction of two triple oven
11incinerators near the bath houses for special actions.
12These are the gas chambers also known as bunkers one and
13two". Van Pelt says that. "On January 21st 1972 Eiffel
14testified in court that, when he wrote down the word bath
15houses for special actions, he knew exactly what this
16euphemism meant 'I knew at the time that this concerned
17gassing spaces'".
18     Now, that is right is it not? I mean, he said
19that, do you know? You say you know the trial well. Yes?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I know the reason why he was acquitted, yes.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Concentrate on the point that Mr Rampton is
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 MR RAMPTON:     Concentrate on the point. It is at the bottom of
25page, the German, so we can be sure that you are not going
26to accuse van Pelt of mistranslation.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If it did not mean that, I think this is
 2really the point, what did sonderaktionen mean?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     It does not really advance us very far. It just says he
 4knows they were talking about the gassing spaces.
 5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That was for clothes?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Vergassungsraume is always for fumigation of clothes,
 8 MR RAMPTON:     No. Unless Van Pelt has got it wrong, I do not
 9know, the German seem to say, I knew at that time that
10this, that is [German spoken- document not provided]
11concerned gassing spaces.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     I think we can assume that, had Eiffel then been examined
13further, as no doubt a good counsel would have done, and
14said what do you mean by [German spoken - document not
15provided] presumably mean homicidal gas chambers, and he
16would then have given either yes or no answer, but we are
17not told because Mr van Pelt has only give us half a
18sentence here.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is a fair point.
20 MR RAMPTON:     You can take that up with him. It is maybe a fair
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, at some stage can we elicit
23something we had planned to elicit, namely to what extent
24was Mr Irving aware, when he made his statements about the
25gas chambers not having existed, of this and indeed the
26other evidence which you are taking him through? At some

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