Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 8: Electronic Edition

Pages 16 - 20 of 191

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    No, Mr Irving, I am sorry. You can do that later in
 1re-examination of yourself if you wish?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I certainly shall because all those things taken together
 3indicated why the Judge wrote down those words in his
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Could his Lordship and Mr Irving please be given the
 6original transcript, or whatever it is, of Judge Biddle's
 7notes and also Mr Irving's noted form of that document on
 8his index cards?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     These were provided by me to your solicitors.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where are they going to go? There is another
11loose document coming, floating in. Where shall I put
13 MR RAMPTON:     The back of core file Auschwitz K2. It will be
14tab ----
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is really a core bundle document, is
17 MR RAMPTON:     It is an Auschwitz document in a sense, but
18actually on this little exercise for mismisrepresentation.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is Biddle's notes of Madame Couturier.
20 MR RAMPTON:     That is right. 28th January 1946. This is his
21notes of her evidence.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     "Sang the Marseillaise when the gas trucks started to
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     On page 3, Mr Irving, if you turn to page 3 -- I marked
25it tab 7 in K2, my Lord, if that is convenient?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, thank you.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     At the top of page 3 of his actual notes there are
 2two sentences: "SS distributed punishment in form of 50
 3blows of stick on back by a sort of machine. Endless roll
 4calls and gymnastics". Then a new paragraph, Mr Irving.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sorry, which page.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Page 3, my Lord. 3 at the top or 34 at the
 7bottom. Then there is a new paragraph: "House of
 8prostitution for SS selected young women as they were
 9washing for maids or camps used the same system. (This
10I doubt)." Then he starts a new paragraph.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The only thing. Mr Irving, that he is doubting is her
13statement about the prostitution.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think you have any justification for saying that.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is perfectly obvious.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     In the previous paragraph we have heard about the SS
17having a machine for beating people with, which on the
18face of it is totally implausible, and we now know it to
19be totally untrue. By this time, this Judge Biddle, who
20is a very, very level headed American, as I know from his
21private papers, is so fed up with this woman's testimony
22that he finally can stand it no longer and he dictates in
23parenthesis into his report -- this, you remember, is not
24in typing or handwriting, this is him dictating to a
25secretary so we do not know where the paragraphs begin or
26end in his dictation. He says, "This I doubt".

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, will you look at your own note of this
 2document? You came upon these in Syracuse in New York
 3State, I think?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     The Americans call it Syracuse.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I beg their pardon. But that is right, is it not?.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     This is correct, at the university of Syracuse.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There is a little clip, two pages, of your own index card
 8notes -- have I got it right?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     On the second page, in the top right hand corner, you
11report this part of Judge Biddle's note and, wherever you
12are, as it were, missing something out, you put quite
13properly an ellipse with three dots.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     At the bottom of that box on the right-hand side, which
16I assume is a card, you write: "... House of prostitution
17for SS selected young women as they were washing for
18maids. All camps used the same system (this
19I doubt). ..."
20 A. [Mr Irving]     The reason why I write down about the house
21of prostitution is because this was referred to as a
22sonderhouse and sondergeboide and so, for people who are
23interested in the Holocaust, you noticed the word sonder
24as being attached to something which was not connected
25with gassing, and that is why I quoted that particular
26paragraph but, once again, I submit that this dictated

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 1parenthesis by Biddle refers to everything he has heard up
 2to this point. It is getting more and more implausible
 3and, when he hears about the machine for beating people,
 4his patience snaps.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, that must be complete nonsense, must it
 6not?. Look at the little paragraph in Judge Biddle.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     He did not say, "new paragraph Miss Smith", he just
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What warrant did you have for inflating that side note
10about one little paragraph about prostitution into a
11general doubt by Judge Biddle about the credibility of the
12whole of this lady's testimony. What warrant was there
13for that?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I sat for either one or two days in the university library
15of Syracuse University. Reading all Judge Biddle's notes
16on the testimony given by the witnesses that I was
17interested in, and also his notes on the deliberations on
18the judgment, whether to hang or sentence to life
19imprisonment and so on. So you get a very good feeling
20for the sense of the way a judge is thinking and, if he
21did not make this kind of comment about the other
22witnesses and suddenly at this point he does, then this is
23what said to me that this was a witness who tested his own
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I just ask because I am not quite sure
26that I am following this? You interpret those three words

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 1in parenthesis, appearing where they do in the summary of
 2this lady's evidence, as the judge casting doubt over the
 3totality of it?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Up to that point, yes. There is no reason for him to
 5doubt really the house of prostitution but there certainly
 6is reason to doubt what comes in the paragraph before
 7about the special machine for caning people. We did not
 8even have that at public school. Everything up to this
 9point he has been listening, as judges do, I am sure your
10Lordship also does sometimes, with mounting impatience,
11and he made a little mental note that he dictated that
12evening to a secretary, "(this I doubt)".
13 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, you know perfectly well, do you not,
14that you have done what you have so often done? You have
15taken one little phrase which is applied to one
16proposition made by the witness about prostitution when
17the judge has put a parenthetical note that he doubts this
18proposition, and the word "this" is very specific in
19English. It means that which we are now talking about,
20does it not?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     What they were now talking about was the SS distributed
22punishment in the form of 50 blows by a stick on the back
23by a machine, and all the other stories about the
24orchestra playing music as people went into the gas
25chambers, all these other stories that this witness
26generated in her testimony. There is a great deal of it

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