Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 8: Electronic Edition

Pages 151 - 155 of 191

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    I think you have also, as you so often do, made a
 1back to them in Professor van Pelt cross-examination.
 2I just ask you to look at page 49 before I leave this.
 3This is a letter I think, Mr Irving. It is dated 20th
 4June 1943.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     28th June.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sorry, 28th June 1943, to Kammler who is the head of
 7Waffen SS Supply Department in Berlin, am I right?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     From Bicshoff, though it has not got his signature in and
10that is no doubt because it is an office copy, setting out
11what he perceives to be or is reporting to be the
12theoretical capacity of each of five crematoria at the
13time when he writes in a 24-hour period. Have I got it
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So that is 4,756 corpses in 24 hours.
17 MR RAMPTON:     That is 4,756 people corpses -- I must not suggest
18they were alive -- 4,756 corpses to be incinerated by
19these five installations in a 24-hour period. If you
20multiply, Mr Irving, 4,756 by 7 you get something like
2133,000 in a week; and you if multiply that by 4 you get
22something like 130,000 a month; and if you multiply that
23by 12 you get about 1.6 million in a year. What,
24Mr Irving, did they need that kind of capacity for?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Can we discuss the document first?
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     By all means.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     This is one of the few documents whose integrity I am
 2going to challenge.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Ah! On what basis, please tell us?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I prefer to discuss this with one of the expert
 5historians who you are calling as witnesses.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     No, absolutely not, Mr Irving. Do not keep your
 8cards in your pocket, it is not allowed.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have to explain why now.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, as I explained already to the court and we discussed
11this briefly with Professor Watt, all German documents of
12this character had to follow a standard layout, a German
13Civil Service layout, if you can put it like this. They
14were typed in a certain way. They had certain
15characteristics like the security classification and so on
16put in. Certain things were written in by hand. Certain
17things were typed in. There are I think five or six
18different versions of this document I have seen in the
19files over the last couple of years, and there are a
20number of discrepancies. I am only going to point to one
21discrepancy and this is right in the top left. The
22"31550" has been typed in,.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why is that a discrepancy?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, if you go back to page 39 you will see that
25characteristically it would start off with "Brief
26Tagebuch" BFTGB. This is a very good one for comparison.

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 1Then you follow with a handwritten number 24365 which
 2always handwritten on the documents, followed then by the
 3"43" which is the year and that is missing in this page
 449, the year is missing and the year is always there
 5normally, followed by JA, and if it is supposed to be
 6"Janisch" it should be a JA with an umlaut, followed on
 7page 49 by NE full stop, dash, and there is no other
 8document in the entire Auschwitz archives which has a
 9secretary initial "NE".
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why do you say that is the secretary?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     The last initials to come there would always be the
12secretary who has typed the document. The one before it
13is the one who has dictated it. So that is the
14discrepancy, just in that one line. The line above the
15date we are missing the word "Auschwitz". So this is a
16document that I am very unhappy with, not to mention the
17fact that the figures do not tally with any of the
18established figures that are provided by the top company
19who actually manufactures these crematoria.
20 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, Mr Irving. That is what happens, is it not?
21You come across something absolutely insuperable, so
22immediately you cast doubt on its authenticity?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I have been careful not to do this with any other
24documents, Mr Rampton.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the provenance of this document,
26Mr Rampton, do you know.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     It has on my copy "reproduced from the holdings of
 2the US Holocaust Memorial Museum Archives", but ----
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I think it is ----
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- but at the bottom of the page there is a signature or
 5the handwritten word "Jahrling" or it might be "Jahrling?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     "Jahrling".
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It has the umlaut on it there at the bottom of the page,
 8has it not?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but the typist obviously did not bother to put it in
10because on a German typewriter it is a different letter.
11I think it first surfaced in about 1950 when it was
12supplied by the East German Government to the Auschwitz
13Museum which is a rather odd way round for it to go.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you know that?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     From studies -- I am not reproducing my own conclusions on
16this document. I am not an expert on these documents, but
17I have read a study on it. But I have subsequently heard
18from someone that it did actually surface in Soviet hands
19back in the 1945 period.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Let us suppose for a moment it is an authentic document so
21we can get on a bit faster. You can take it up with
22Professor van Pelt probably tomorrow.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I just want to say it is a suspect document, but I am
24quite happy to accept that I may be wrong on that.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Let us ----
26 A. [Mr Irving]     It has things that would make my ----

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Let us assume you are wrong. Why do you think, if you are
 2wrong, that they contemplated that kind of capacity?
 3I mean they are contemplating incinerating more than the
 4whole population of the camp once a month?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, that again is a pointer to the totally absurdity of
 6the document frankly.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Oh no, it is not, Mr Irving. If they are incinerating
 8people who will never form part of the population of the
 9camp at all, it is not absurd in the very least bit.
10People who are selected on arrival for being killed and
11incinerated, they never get registered in the camp, do
13 A. [Mr Irving]     The entire population of the camp is going to be between
14150,000 and 200,000 people.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, it is projected at some stage. I will have the
16projection figures for you tomorrow, but if these are
17registered people that are being talked about here, then
18I quite agree, it is utterly absurd. If, however, what is
19contemplated is that the majority of these people who are
20going to be incinerated are never registered at all but
21are merely killed on arrival off the train, why then it is
22not the least bit absurd, is it?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     It is absurd when you look at the individual figures and
24you know that those figures wildly exceed anything that
25the top company who actually designed and specified the
26crematorium furnaces had provided for by many multiples.

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