Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 8: Electronic Edition

Pages 146 - 150 of 191

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. This is in February 1943. It has all gone. It was
 2the summer of '42?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. And there would have been no more typhus
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There was not one in '43.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     But did they know there was going to be no typhus
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, of course not. But this is mid winter in southern
 9Poland, it is 11th February 1943, and he wants it all
10finished by 6th March. Have I got an answer?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Are they not having problems at this time with the other
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     With?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     With the other crematoria?
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Not so far as I know.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     They had run into other crematoria being rendered unsafe
17by chimney fires, this kind of problem?
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Not so far as I know. Professor van Pelt will tell you
19yeah or nay if you ask him that question.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     All I can say is that I have read the three letters. This
21is one letter of three that were sent to me last night in
22conjunction with each other. Bischoff, who is at
23Auschwitz, is, as you say, tearing strips off his
24suppliers for repeatedly failing to deliver on time, and
25supplies come back to him and say: "We will give you a
26ten horse-power motor instead of a seven horse-power motor

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 1which will do the job as well". I do not read any great
 2significance into them saying "urgently" as the kind of
 3thing I say to printers when I want books printed
 4urgently. What I say is that I urgently need. What I did
 5notice on one of the letters (I cannot put my finger on
 6which one it was - I am sure Miss Rogers can help us on
 7this) is Topf, the company that is supplying the equipment
 8to Auschwitz, saying that we cannot get the priority for
 9our shipments, we cannot get the railroad priority, which
10seems an odd thing if this is the Final Solution they are
11talking about, and the company who is supplying the
12equipment says, "We cannot get the priority to put our
13stuff on the trains".
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In February or March in Southern Poland, Mr Irving, I
15should think, I do not know, but I should think the
16temperature is pretty low, is it not?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but I also think and I am not an epidemiologist, but
18I do happen to know typhus epidemics are most prevalent in
19precisely these months of the year. They come and go in
20cycles. The early months of the year is when typhus
21epidemics are considered to be the most prevalent.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That was not the experience in 1942, was it, in this
24 A. [Mr Irving]     It began in 1942 and got out of hand in early 1942 until
25it reached its peak, I think, in about August 1942.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We have now abandoned really air raid shelters, have we

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 2 A. [Mr Irving]     As a topic for questioning, yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We can forget air raid shelters. You do not get a letter
 4like this, "must complete, you are late, we cannot use the
 5installation until these motors arrive, these ventilation
 6motors", if we are talking about air raid shelters?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Like any other building that has been newly erected in
 8Germany, no doubt in England, they are not allowed to put
 9them into operation until they meet the building
10inspector's standard. This equipment was undoubtedly
11considered to be essential before the building could be
12put into use. German buildings, just like any other, had
13to be passed by a building inspector. I think Professor
14van Pelt makes this point also.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I have a piece of paper and I ask you simply to note, you
16can take it up with Professor van Pelt later on, a piece
17of paper which tells me that the mortality from the typhus
18epidemic during the summer of 1942 was, it looks like,
19about 20,000, about 20,000 -- 8,000, sorry 8,000, that is
20from the epidemic, and that there was virtually no typhus
21during 1943. Do you accept that?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Not necessarily. I would have to see the figures for
23myself, but also here we are in February 1943, they have
24had the most ghastly experience in 1942, and they are
25taking, to my mind, responsible precautions in case the
26same thing happens in 1943.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But in the light of all the ----
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     They are getting ready and prepared and they have lost two
 3of their crematoria by this time I believe.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So you say. You must put that to Professor van Pelt. In
 5the light of all the evidence, the reference
 6gasungskeller, to a gaskammer, to all the rest of the
 7documentary evidence, and of the eyewitness testimony,
 8Mr Irving, the likeliest explanation for a document of
 9this kind is this, is it not: "We want to start the big
10extermination programme in March, get on with it"?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     If I was to write a book and based that conclusion on a
12document like that I would rightly stand before a court
13like this for manipulation and distortion.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, Mr Irving, you know that is not a proper answer to my
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Of course it is a proper answer.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I said in the light ----
18 A. [Mr Irving]     I am being accused of basing my hypotheses on what you
19describe as flimsy lines like Judentransport and keine
20liquidierung, and the conclusions I drew on those two
21lines I am accused of having distorted and manipulated,
22and yet you are trying to read into this one document ----
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. You did not ----
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, you have not understood what the question
25was. Mr Rampton's question expressly -- will you listen,
26please -- expressly referred to all the other evidence,

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 1including eyewitness evidence and the rest. You know what
 2he is talking about.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, precisely as I did ----
 4 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     He is saying in the light of all of that evidence would
 5you not accept that gas chambers is the likely
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     The short answer is no, and I would add to say, add the
 8remark that is precisely what I said when I was accused of
 9having drawn adventurous conclusions on the documents laid
10before me. I said remember I have the basis of my entire
11expertise and all the other documents I had, and I rely on
12them too. This is precisely the argument being used by
13Mr Rampton to justify this as being a smoking gun. This
14is a very flimsy document indeed.
15 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, I do not say that this document ----
16 A. [Mr Irving]     With no security classification on this document either.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, but it was not being put on that document
18alone. That is the point, but let us move on.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, you appreciate the point I am trying to make?
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I certainly understand the point, but I think you may have
21underrated Mr Rampton's question.
22 MR RAMPTON:     I think you have also, as you so often do, made a
23false comparison about the point I am making with the
24point I make against you in relation to Berlin Jews.
25However, I pass now from these documents. I think, my
26Lord, that is perhaps enough for the moment. We may come

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