Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 8: Electronic Edition

Pages 136 - 140 of 191

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Excuse me, no. It is being sent to the Deutsche [German].
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. That is in Auschwitz. Look.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     All it just says is the factory, Auschwitz, Obeschlazien.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Look, and [German - document not provided] "OS"?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     "Obeschalzien". It just says, "The factory at Auschwitz"
 6which is the town of Auschwitz.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Exactly.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     It does not say, "Concentration camp, Auschwitz".
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, no, but these orders all go to the -- they made
10furniture and a whole lot of other things. It all goes to
11Auschwitz. This is not some order to some centralised air
12raid making department in Berlin, is it?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     This is obviously a company which manufactures air raid
14shelter doors.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You do not find anything about air raid shelters in this
16document, do you?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     "Deutsche [German]", [German] is equipment factories.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     It is nothing to do with furniture.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In Auschwitz?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     In the town of Auschwitz. As Mr Van Pelt will tell you,
22Auschwitz was a town.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, if all these air raid shelter
24doors come with a peep hole, why does he have to spell it
25out in the letter? I mean, he is saying, "I want a peep
26hole in my door". Why does he say that?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     It is the same, you will see, my Lord, when they are
 2ordering electric motors, they also specify exactly what
 3the electric motor has to be.
 4 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That may be rather different because there are various
 5kinds of electric motor.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Anyway, when you see the photographs of the doors they are
 7talking about and the doors that are in all the standard
 8Civil Defence manuals, they are the standard air raid
 9shelter door.
10 MR RAMPTON:     These doors have been purpose built. He has
11already got one, has Bischoff, for Leichenkeller 1 in
12crematorium (ii). He says to the people, the manufacturer
13in Auschwitz, the manufacturer in Auschwitz: "I want
14another exactly the same for Leichenkeller 1 in
15crematorium (iii)", does he not?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     On the face of it, this is a very incriminating and highly
17sinister and murderous document, but, of course, it is
18lacking one thing, is it not?
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What is that?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Security classification. There is no secret stamp on it.
21If this is connected to the Final Solution and it is
22talking about this kind of sinister document, they would
23have put a "Secret", even the lowest classification on it.
24This is a document of janitorial level which you are
25trying to hype up into a smoking gun.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which is exactly why you might find that it does not have

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 1"Geheim" on it, janitorial level.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     In other words, it is capable of ----
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There are two points. One is that it is not
 4authentic because it is not stamped "Geheim" and the other
 5is that it is janitorial.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not saying -- no, my Lord. I am not saying it is not
 7authentic, my Lord. I am saying the fact that it is given
 8no security classification, even by an SS officer,
 9indicates that it is as harmless as it appears to be.
10 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     But I would have thought that if it is on a janitorial
11level, it might be all the more valuable as a clue to what
12is really going on.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     No, it is ----
14 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     What is wrong with that proposition?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     I think that this is looking for conspiracy theories the
16whole time, my Lord. If you are confronted with an
17innocent document in which he is ordering an innocent air
18raid shelter door, it does not occur to anybody to start
19stamping it "Secret", and it does not occur to him that 50
20years down the road the Queen's Bench Division is going to
21try to make this out into a smoking gun.
22 MR RAMPTON:     These are all carbons, are they not, Mr Irving?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Don't fall for that one. Immediately after the top left
24where it says "43/KI/Schull", which is the name of the
25secretary, there would be another "/" followed by "GEH"
26or "G" or "GKDOS" or "GRS", according to what security

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 1classification it had. It would be part of the letter
 2book registration number.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I just want to pursue the air raid shelter dream a little
 4bit further, if I may, Mr Irving?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     The air raid shelter?
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Dream" because it is, I have to suggest, complete
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     And this list of documents about air raid shelters is also
 9a fantasy from the Moscow archives?
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The "Deutsche aust" [German - document not provided]
11Gazelshaft", etc. ----
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- in Auschwitz?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     At Auschwitz.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- at Auschwitz, well, in Auschwitz -- there was a sort
16of settlement there -- was SS operated and inmate staffed,
17was it not?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     I will take your word for it -- probably with slave
19labour, yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I just want to pursue the air raid shelter a little bit
21further. How far away is Leichenkeller 1 or how far away
22are crematoria (ii) -- I will start again. Who was going
23to go into these air raid shelters of yours? Who were
24they for?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I have no idea.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     For the inmates?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     I have no idea.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, you have been asked now?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     But my answer ----
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Would they have built them for the slave labour? That is
 5really inherent in the question.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. I said "for the inmates".
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     If we are really interested in this subject, I can
 8inundate the court with paper about the construction of
 9splinter trenches, concrete roof with reinforced concrete
10beams, bunkers for the inmates and everything. There was
11a great deal of agitation and work went on providing air
12raid shelter for the SS and for the inmates ----
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. You have advanced ----
14 A. [Mr Irving]     --- during these months and years.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- the air raid shelter theory?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Which had, obviously, not occurred to you.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Obviously not occurred? We have known about it for years,
18Mr Irving. It just seems so silly we have not bothered to
19take it terribly seriously. Perhaps we are wrong. If
20this is for the SS, this air raid shelter, it is a
21terribly long way from the SS barracks, is it not? They
22would all be dead before they ever got there if there was
23a bombing raid. Have you thought about that? It is about
24two and a half miles?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I remember during the war when we got air raid warnings
26half an hour, an hour, before the planes arrived.

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