Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 8: Electronic Edition

Pages 131 - 135 of 191

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    It is, perhaps, if you are a humble workman in southern
 1sometimes make: "I ain't been there today"?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Can we see the actual document, please?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is "im", is it?
 4 MR RAMPTON:     "Im", he has just got the wrong gender.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "Kammer" is "das kammer".
 6 MR RAMPTON:     "Kammer" is feminine.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is feminine? "die kammer", is it?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     No, die kammer, "in der gaskammer" it should be
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, exactly. He has made a grammatical mistake.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Can we have a look at the document and see how much else
11is ungrammatical about it?
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is in the second volume new 3 and it is in tab 4 at
13page 38. Unfortunately, the photograph we have has been
14cut off. I assure you that the word is "gaskammer"
15because I have the reproduction.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You said tab 4?
17 MR RAMPTON:     Tab 4, my Lord, page 38. It is a coloured
18photograph of a handwritten entry in a time sheet. Page
1938. One of the numbers on it is 35, unfortunately, but
20the one to look out for is a new handwritten No. 38. In
21the third line from the end he has written something about
22"fussboden", something or other, in gaskammer?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, with the two Ss in the "gass" as well.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sorry?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Two Ss in the "gass", G-A-S-S, kammer.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Quite right.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     What does the other "S" stand for, do you think?
 2Gasschuts? Gas protection?
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You tell me.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know. I am just drawing attention to further
 5errors in this document.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     But, in view of the fact that I have stated that the odds
 8are that the vergasen to which reference is made is
 9Leichenkeller 1.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is to do with crematorium (iv)?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     And this is, therefore, in all likelihood, the
12entwesungsanlager to which the document refers which
13I shall be showing you tomorrow.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Leave aside the grammatical mistakes and the misspelling,
15Mr Irving, what does a German mean by the word
17 A. [Mr Irving]     "Gas chamber". But this is almost certainly a reference
18to the building they are making at this time, namely
19entwesungsanlager to which reference is made in the
20document I referred to earlier, the fumigation equipment.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not have that document.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, it will below all these things right out of the
23water tomorrow.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We look forward to it. I am still a little puzzled why
25the gas chamber or, sorry, the vergasungskeller at
26crematoria (ii) and (iii) need -- now could you please

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 1turn to page 44?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, it needs a steel door with a peep hole, right?
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. I want to look at the first paragraph first.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Right.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That relates to the crematoria (iv) and (v), does it not?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     BW 30B and 30C, and there is an order for three gas type
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Ignore the "M". That is a misprint. It should be "turn"
11and "gas type towers" is what the person has written?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is another error?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, "gas type doors".
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The second paragraph says that they have -- you read it to
16me and tell me what it says?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     "On this occasion we remind you of a further order dated
18March 6th 1943 for the supply of one gas door, 100/192,
19for the mortuary No. 1 of crematorium No. (iii), the
20construction project 30A, which has to be manufactured
21precisely according to the type and scale of the cellar
22door, basement door, of the crematorium No. (ii) which is
23directly opposite with a peep hole with a double eight
24millimetre glass with a rubber gasket and mounting".
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Steel, a metal mounting, is it not?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     That is right, yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now, why would you need that for a room which was to be
 2used either for gassing corpses or clothes?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     You remember the third alternative use which I suggested
 4this morning.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Oh, you mean it might be an air raid shelter?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     With no emergency exit?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     This was one of the few underground buildings in
 9Auschwitz. It was built almost entirely subterraneously
10with a concrete roof, a cast concrete roof, reinforced
11concrete roof, ideally suited as an air raid shelter. The
12door described here, and the door which is, indeed, found
13in Auschwitz, is a typical air raid steel door, a gas
14tight door, of the kind which was standard throughout
15Germany at that time.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why do you need a gas type door for an air
17raid shelter in 1943?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Because they did not know that we were not going to use
19poison gas, and all air raid shelters in Germany from this
20time onwards were being built with gas tight doors.
21 MR RAMPTON:     If it be the case, Mr Irving, that the metal
22grille ----
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Excuse me a minute. My Lord, tomorrow I will produce the
24appropriate German air raid manuals producing pictures of
25precisely these doors with the peep holes.
26 MR RAMPTON:     Two things puzzle me about this, well, there are

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 1three. The first is the absence of any kind of emergency
 2exit which I had been led to believe de rigour in German
 3air raid shelter design. Second, if it be the case that
 4the metal protection for the peep hole was on the inside
 5of the door, that does not speak of air raid shelter, does
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know what the standard at that time -- you see,
 8the problem is they do not make these doors ad hoc. There
 9is ----
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     They do.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     If -- the air raid shelter doors are all supplied with
12peep holes, all the gas tight doors had peep holes. It is
13rather like the ATM machines which have a little braille
14pad on them, whether or not it is even a drive by ATM
15machine, it still has the braille pad on it, although,
16obviously, drivers are not blind, because that is the
17cheapest way to make ATM machines. They do not make ----
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, I rather think you are making things up as you
19go along. This is an order from Bischoff?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Who is the head of the architectural department, building
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Indeed, yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     To the work shop in Auschwitz?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     They made these things to order?

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