Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 8: Electronic Edition

Pages 121 - 125 of 191

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    If you have read correctly what I said in my public
 1utterances, I have always relied on the chemical forensic
 2part of the Leuchter examinations and not on any of his
 3other rather absurd statements which I regarded as if --
 4in fact, I never even read those statements except when I,
 5in general, took on board the fact that he was an engineer
 6and he was venturing outside his proper field.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, you knew that at the time, did you not?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Knew what at that time?
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That he was venturing outside his expertise which was
10extremely limited?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I said so in my correspondence at the time. I said
12if only ----
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Correspondence, I am not interested in your
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, the correspondence shows my state of mind at the
16time, Mr Rampton, which is material in this court.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So, in private, in your mind, I suggest to you, you had
18received material from Beer, Crabtree, Wegner, which, in
19effect, completely discredited Leuchter, but you never
20gave that any public notice at all, did you?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I was not under any compulsion to give private
22correspondence public notice. When you are an author, you
23are constantly receiving letters from members of the
24public suggesting you have got things wrong. Sometimes
25you ignore them, and I know a lot of people ignore lots of
26things. A lot of the experts in this case have ignored

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 1lots of documents until they finally come up in this
 2trial. But when you are conscientious, then you will put
 3those objections to other people who are probably better
 4informed than yourselves and say, "What do you say about
 5this?" This is precisely what I did.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, I have got very little left on this Auschwitz
 7question now. Can you tell me this, because the answers
 8to these questions, I am not going to cross-examine you
 9about them if your answer be yes. I leave you to raise
10them with Professor van Pelt by way of rebuttal of what
11I would characterize as the overwhelming evidence in
12favour of his thesis.
13     First, do you see the coke supplies at Auschwitz
14as being significant?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Coke?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "Coke" did you say?
17 MR RAMPTON:     Coke, C-O-K-E, which in those days meant what it
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think I assumed that.
20 MR RAMPTON:     You are going to raise that with Professor --
21I need to know because he has to prepare himself, you see?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Are you going to raise the question of coke supply?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     We shall raise that because if Holocaust denial is said to
25be minimising or reducing the scale of the tragedy in a
26numerical sense, then we are entitled to look at the coke

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 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Are you going to deal with incineration capacity?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Cremation capacity, the various crematoria.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am talking about burning corpses in ovens or in pits.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, in my side of the courtroom you call it "cremation"
 6rather than "incineration".
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Call it what you like. Are you going to raise that with
 8Professor van Pelt?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     I think so, yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Are you going to raise the question of the Hensley
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but also I shall be doing that with Dr Jean Fox as
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am sure you will. Are you going to raise the question
15of the so-called "death books"?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Are you going to raise the question of the supplies of
18Zyklon B to Runinberg and also to Auschwitz?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I am going to be raising the general question of the
20production rate of Zyklon B by the factory.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am sorry?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     And its delivery and to specific quantities delivered to
23various camps, yes. I shall also be raising the question
24of the authenticity of the eyewitnesses.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Certainly.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Their integrity.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I think what Mr Rampton was really
 2doing, if I understand him right, was investigating with
 3you what other positive pointers you feel exist towards
 4the non-existence of gas chambers.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     The eyewitnesses come into that. I suppose that is
 6negative. That is negative.
 7 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     You say they are negative. I think what Mr Rampton really
 8would like you to say is, is there anything else that you
 9are positively relying on, as it were, against the
10existence of gas chambers? Do you understand the
11question? I hope it is not ----
12 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not really understand that.
13 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     --- obscure.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Well, I think you agreed with me that Mr Rampton has just
16run through various topics which you are going to raise
17because in your ----
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Of course, we are relying on the architectural evidence,
19my Lord, what Mr Rampton will call the archeological
21 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Right.
22 MR RAMPTON:     That is fine, my Lord. With your Lordship's
23leave, at present -- I may come back to it by way of
24re-examination -- I see no purpose in my dealing with
25those what I call rebuttal topics in cross-examination.
26If your Lordship wishes me to do so, I easily can, but it

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 1will take time and we are going to go round the houses all
 2over again when Professor van Pelt gives evidence because
 3what I put in cross-examination is only what Professor Van
 4Pelt will say from the witness box.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Will Professor van Pelt be actually giving
 6evidence-in-chief or will he be relying on his report?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is a question for me and the answer is
 8he will be relying on his report.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     I am going to ask his Lordship about that in a
10moment because I have now finished, my Lord, so far as
11Auschwitz is answered.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, but, I mean, in answer to the question,
13750 pages is enough to speak for itself.
14 MR RAMPTON:     I am not going to read it all out your Lordship --
15which your Lordship has read once, if not more often. It
16seems to me that, really, we have reached the position
17now, if your Lordship agrees, where all I really need to
18do -- I had had in mind a sort of nice graphic demo and
19screens and all that kind of thing for Professor van Pelt,
20but I no longer think it necessary because, apart from
21this question of concentration and the chemical analysis
22results, it seems to me, I may be wrong, that really
23Mr Irving has abandoned Mr Fred Leuchter and his report in
24toto. That being so, I do not need to go through the

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