Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 8: Electronic Edition

Pages 116 - 120 of 191

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    That is the figure which is used for judicial
 1is wrong too, is it not?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     On all five of them? I do not know.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     All doors opened outwards, which is why they are not air
 4raid shelters.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Air raid shelters doors always open outwards.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why? What if the rest of the building tumbles down
 7outside and you cannot get out?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     The reason is because the blast from a bomber exploding
 9outwards will blow the door in if it opens inwards. Air
10raid doors always open outwards.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     They do not all open inwards, they all open outwards.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Air raid shelter doors, yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, the doors of these rooms.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I take your word for it.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We can look at the plans Mr Irving, but do take my word
16for it. It is what Professor van Pelt has already told us
17and will say again if you challenge him.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, can you go back to the bottom of
19page 13, "With the chambers fully packed with occupants
20there would be no circulation of HCN within the room."
21 MR RAMPTON:     I have not got to that yet, but by all means, your
22Lordship, ask Mr Irving about that.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I would like to understand the point that
24Leuchter thinks he is making there at the bottom of page
26 A. [Mr Irving]     There is actually a more valid point than that. That is,

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 1if you pack 2,000 people into a chamber the size of this
 2room as Bruno Tesh, who was later hanged, the man who
 3produced the Zyklon B, said you would not need cyanide to
 4kill them, they would suffocate in a very short space of
 5time anyway.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Maybe. I do not know that I think that that is an
 7answer to his Lordship's question. Perhaps that is no
 8business of mine. He goes on: "Additionally, if the gas
 9eventually did fill the chamber over a lengthy time period
10those throwing Zyklon B in the roof vents and verifying
11the death of the occupants would themselves die from
12exposure to H C N".
13 A. [Mr Irving]     I would have thought it was rather unscientific also.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is complete rubbish, is it not? H C N is slightly
15heavier than air, is it not, and they wore gas masks, and
16all they did was lift up the vents and drop the pellets in
17and quickly close the vents?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     The ones on top of the roof, right.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So what is left of this report, Mr Irving?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     The forensic statistics which are what I base my
21conclusions on.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which is precisely consistent with what Professor
23Markievitch found in 1994, and what Krakov found in 1945,
24is it not?
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Small traces?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     What I have always said, Mr Rampton, is that the report is

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 1flawed and in my letters to associates I clearly said what
 2a pity Leuchter started speculating about things that were
 3beyond his ken when the chemical figures are all that can
 4be relied upon and that speak the real language.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, the position is this, is it not? You know as
 6well as I do that this Leuchter report is not worth the
 7paper it is written on. You know that he got the crucial
 8concentration completely the wrong way round and therefore
 9drew false conclusions from it. You know that the true
10measurement of concentration is consistent with what
11Krakov found in 1945 and with what Markievitch found in
121994. Your only way round that is to assert that these
13were indeed gas chambers, but not for killing people. Is
14that not right?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Designed as, yes. But what I do not accept is your
16suggestion that the Leuchter report is totally valueless.
17The most important part of the Leuchter report was the
18forensic results which were done in fact not by
19Mr Leuchter but by Dr Roth.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which is precisely consistent with the kinds of
21concentrations in residue which you would expect to find
22if on the one hand there are low residue areas with
23homicidal gas chambers, and on the other hand the high
24residue areas were delousing chambers?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Not entirely. That is going to extremes and you are not
26entitled to go to total extremes like that.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Broadly consistent?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think even broadly so.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have known this since ----
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     The total discrepancy in these figures is so eclatant, is
 5to dramatic, that there has to be some explanation for
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So you say. You can put that to Professor van Pelt.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     So I say and so I believe.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I go back to an answer you gave a minute
10ago? Mr Rampton asked this question: You know that the
11measurement of concentrations is consistent with what was
12found in 1945 and 1994; your only way round that - this is
13the question - is to assert that these were indeed gas
14chambers but not for killing people, is that not right?
15And then you said "designed as, yes". Can you elaborate a
16little on that?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     We do not know to what degree they were then subsequently
19 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Do you mean by that that these chambers were designed as
20gas chambers for killing people?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     No, I did not mean that, my Lord. I meant that we know
22that this particular one, the crematoria 2, the one which
23interests me, Leichenkeller 1, the mass one where
24Professor van Pelt says 500 thousand people died, that the
25documentary evidence shows that it was also designed with
26dual functions as an air raid shelter and as a fumigation

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 1chamber. We do not know whether it was used in either of
 2those capacities.
 3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Designed as a fumigation chamber?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     That is what I should have spelt out. We have not really
 5been told what these other reports say yet.
 6 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     No, I am waiting to hear.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     There is one other part of this report, Mr Irving,
 8which is not dealt with in that list of the bullet points
 9 -- I would say that they were blanks rather bullets -- in
10Mr Leuchter's report. It is incineration capacity.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He got that completely wrong, did he not?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Incineration capacity has been a matter of great debate
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I know that, but answer my question. Leuchter got it
16wrong, did he not?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     I would not be surprised if he got it wrong.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Completely wrong?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I would not be surprised if he got it wrong. There are
20very widely different opinions. Even the experts cannot
21agree what the capacities were.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Notwithstanding this catalogue of fundamental errors in
23Leuchter, you publicly, in your public role, have adhered
24to it as though it was the gospel of St John, have you
26 A. [Mr Irving]     

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