Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 8: Electronic Edition

Pages 106 - 110 of 191

<< 1-5191 >>
    I think your Lordship might like to hear about just one
 1document which supports my "bizarre hypothesis", as you
 2call it.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am not going to spend my time on cross-examination on
 4that topic. Mr Irving, there is one other question.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     May I not state what this one document is, my Lord.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you talking about the fumigation aspect?
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Please do.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     There is an invoice which is in our possession provided by
10the firm which was responsible for the construction and
11erection and installation of these crematoria, namely the
12top firm, for the provision of manpower, and equipment for
13the tarring of the entwesungsanlage in precisely this
14building. The entwesungsanlage was the disinfestation
15plant in this building. It has no alternative meaning.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not know ----
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am afraid the significance of what you have
18just said escapes me.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     That is precisely what my contention is, what this room
20was being used as. They had installed this room
21Liechenkeller 1, as a disinfestation, room, as a
22sonderkeller for treating the infested bodies which were
23delivered to the crematorium during the appalling plague
24which hit Auschwitz in 1942 and 1943.
25 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     So you are saying that this invoice, or whatever it is,
26can be tied in to the chamber from which the zinc covers

.    P-106

 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not want to try and establish a complete link in that
 3linkage in that manner, my Lord. I was only asked to
 4support my "bizarre hypothesis", as Mr Rampton calls it,
 5that an alternative use of this room was not just a
 6mortuary but also as a disinfestation chamber.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Where is this document?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I will produce it to you tomorrow morning. Had I known
 9you were going to lead this evidence ----
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You cannot do that, Mr Irving. You must produce it now.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If he cannot, he cannot.
12 MR RAMPTON:     You have never disclosed this document, have you?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     The document only came into our possession in the last
14three weeks once we had read all the latest reports.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The last three weeks?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, you have been bombarding us with documents over the
17last few months.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     According to you, Mr Irving, this is a key document, which
19proves your case that these were never homicidal gas
20chambers, merely licicidal.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     You have asked for one document which supports this
22"bizarre hypothesis". I have given you one document.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, I do not ask for the document. You offer the
24document in proof of your "bizarre hypothesis." Why have
25I not seen it before?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     His Lordship said before lunch, Mr Rampton, that he would

.    P-107

 1ask me to support or justify, rather than asking you to
 2justify the homicidal version, his Lordship asked me to
 3justify the fumigation version and the air raid shelter
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     May we have a copy? I am not going to make any comment
 6about it until I have seen it and until Professor van Pelt
 7has seen it.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I will fax to you this afternoon and I will bring it
 9tomorrow morning.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you just tell me its date?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     It was early 1943.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Early 1943, thank you very much. I have one final
13question, to which I am sure I know the answer. In
14January 1942 an SS doctor at Auschwitz wrote an internal
15memo to the Kommandatur at Auschwitz, on the one hand
16making requests for the detailed provision for the
17dissection room in the new crematoria, and on the other
18hand requesting that there should be in the keller rooms,
19cellar rooms, of that edifice an undressing room. Why
20would the SS doctor want an undressing room next to the
21dissection room?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     I have to admit that I am not very well versed in practice
23of morticians and pathologists, but I can well imagine
24that corpses which are infected would be undressed in one
25room, which would be regarded as a dirty room, and then
26cleaned, and then taken into the dissection room for

.    P-108

 1dissection. This again is purely commonsense operating
 2and not specific knowledge.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is in this bundle but I am not asking you to look at it
 4now unless you actually want to. Your thesis is that the
 5reference to an auskleideraum in this document is to the
 6undressing of people who are already dead. Is that right?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not sure if you have read Neufurt, which is the
 8standard architects handbook in Germany over the last
 9seven or eight decades? Both Professor Jan van Pelt and
10I have obtained a wartime copy of Neufurt, one each, and
11the layout of mortuaries and crematoria is described in
12some detail in this architects handbook, and it does
13include an undressing room. So, in other words, this is
14nothing unusual in a properly designed mortuary.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We will, if we may, Mr Irving, go back to the Leuchter.
16I hope we can take it quickly. I would like you to turn
17to page 13, my Lord, to tab 1 of the first and largest of
18the new files. In the right hand column on page 13, do
19you have it under "Design and procedures at the alleged
20execution gas chambers" and does your Lordship have it?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
22 MR RAMPTON:     I will jumped to the bold paragraph: "The on site
23inspection of these structures indicated extremely poor
24and dangerous design of these facilities if they were to
25have served as execution gas chambers."
26     The first point: There is no provision for gas

.    P-109

 1fitted doors windows or vents. That as a matter of
 2history is just wrong, is it not, Mr Irving?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know. I have never been to Auschwitz.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     As I said, as a matter of history, not archaeology.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     You have read the documents, I expect, have you?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Which document are you referring to?
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, the documents, there are repeated references, for
 8example as we discussed this morning, to the need for a
 9gas tight door with a peep hole?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. In the Auschwitz documents there are repeated
11references to this, yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am sorry, I meant Auschwitz documents?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So that is a piece of Leuchter which has no foundation in
16 A. [Mr Irving]     I think what he is saying is that nothing was to be seen
17when they inspected on site.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That may be.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is a gas fitted door.
20 MR RAMPTON:     It is a door which has seals so that air cannot
21come in and gas cannot come out, if you see what I mean.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Round the jamb?
23 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, round the jamb.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Gas proof really?
25 MR RAMPTON:     Gas proof. It might be rubber, it might be
26felt. "The structures are not coated with tar or other

.    P-110

<< 1-5191 >>