Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 8: Electronic Edition

Pages 101 - 105 of 191

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    By chance I have two copies of a three page extract I did
 1given a copy to Mr Rampton, which I also have by chance.
 2It contains files, for example, 1943 to 1944, on means of
 3defence against bombs.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are these Russian bombers?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
 6 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Western?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     It is a good question, my Lord.
 8 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I think it might have been.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     It could have been either. They did have Soviet air raids
10on Berlin, certainly.
11 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Anyway, it says, does it, that there were air raids going
12on in 1943?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     It actually goes back to August 1942 my Lord, the various
14files, detailed instructions on how to build air raid
15shelters and protect buildings against incendiary bombs,
16equipping of bunker, down at the bottom of the page more
17exchanges of notes and memos about various camp
18construction projects, many having to do with providing
19air raid shelters.
20 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes. I think that is probably enough.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     There are quite a lot of files relating to plans for air
22raid shelter, estimates and accounts for construction of
23bomb shelters and so on. It was very much in the air, if
24I could put it like that, from August 1942 onwards.
25 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I will not come back to that at the
26moment. I have not read it. I need to take instructions

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 1on it. It is, I think, a redacted version of the
 2documents in question in any event.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, can I, before you continue, make
 5a request which is that, when one gets to a new Auschwitz
 6topic, if you or your team could provide me with the
 7Professor van Pelt reference for it, even if you are not
 8going to necessarily use it for cross-examining, it helps
 9me for my purposes.
10 MR RAMPTON:     They will. Actually all those references are in
11the statement of case, in fact. But that is not much use
12to you.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Not on a running basis, if you see what
14I mean. Miss Rogers can do the looking up.
15 MR RAMPTON:     I think they are also in the request for
16information that we served.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Anyway, if you could bear that in mind
19 MR RAMPTON:     I think I am probably not going to need that, but
20I say that. No doubt my hopes will be dashed. My Lord.
21Before I go to the Leuchter report itself, there are three
22questions I would like to ask Mr Irving about something he
23said this morning, which is the first I have heard of it.
24Mr Irving, you said, I think this morning, words to this
25effect, I do not have the exact words, that it is your
26thesis that the Corpse Cellar 1 in crematoria 2 and 3 had

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 1a dual purpose function, used for gassing corpses and for
 2gassing clothes. Did you say something like that this
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Gassing corpses or objects, yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     First question: If that were so, why did Mr Leuchter not
 6find similar concentrations of hydrogen cyanide residue in
 7those rooms as he did in the delousing facility?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Frankly, I do not know the answer to that.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If they were used for gassing corpses, I wonder if you can
10help me to understand the point, because shortly after
11they were in the mortuary they went to be incinerated?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What would be the point of gassing a corpse that was
14shortly going to be incinerated?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     The corpses arrived in a state of fully clothed. Before
16they were cremated they were undressed, and various other
17bestialities were performed on them. I believe the gold
18teeth were taken out and other functions were performed.
19As the corpses cooled, the lice that may have been on the
20body crawled off the body because lice were seeking heat.
21As the body cooled, they crawled off so you had an
22infestation problem.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Where?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not sure saying this off the top of my head,
25Mr Rampton. I have taken advice on this.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Where would the infestation problem arise, Mr Irving?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Anywhere between the place of death and the Leichenkeller.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. You were talking about gassing corpses in
 3Leichenkeller 1, beside which is a lift straight up to the
 4incineration chamber?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Think about it. Why would you gas a corpse that was going
 7straight up to be cremated?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I thought I gave the explanation.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not understand the explanation because,
10as I understood it, the undressing took place before the
12 MR RAMPTON:     The undressing took place before the gassing?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     That is not the evidence that I gave, my Lord.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought it was. Tell me if I am wrong.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     We have not had any evidence as to that, my Lord.
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     No, but I have read the report. Am I wrong about that?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     I shall certainly be questioning ----
18 MR RAMPTON:     You are absolutely right, my Lord. On the
19evidence, if one can look at the evidence rather than at
20some bizarre version of it, the bigger room is the
21undressing room. They are then shepherded through into
22the smaller room where they are gassed. When they are
23dead, they are taken out through double doors that open
24outwards on to the lift and up into the crematorium, to
25put it crudely.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     I am having difficulty, my Lord. I have not been given a

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 1chance to comment on this rather global presentation of
 2what Mr Rampton alleges to have happened.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Comment now. Now is your chance.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Now is your chance.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, we need to know what basis the evidence is put
 6on. I apprehend that this is based on eyewitness evidence
 7and I shall have something to say about each of the
 8eyewitness reports on which Mr van Pelt bases his
 9statement. I think the proper place to do that is in the
10cross-examination of Professor van Pelt.
11 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I agree with you, Mr Irving. Having taken
12his Lordship's indication before the adjournment, my
13position is this. Professor van Pelt provides an account
14of the evidence which no open minded person would deny led
15to the probable conclusion that this was a mass
16extermination by gassing that was going on.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     That is conclusion of the closed mind. The conclusion of
18the open mind is to look for alternative explanations
19which are supported by the documents, and you have not
20even asked me what the documents to support my case are.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not know what the documents are that support your
23 A. [Mr Irving]     If you ask, you shall learn.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You can put them to Professor van Pelt in his evidence,
25Mr Irving?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     

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