Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 8: Electronic Edition
Pages 1 - 5 of 191
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1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
2Royal Courts of Justice
4 Monday, 24th January 2000
7MR JUSTICE GRAY
9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell & Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
23* Transcript not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry
Counsell & Company
25 PROCEEDINGS - DAY EIGHT
1 <Day 8 Monday, 24th January 2000.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Irving?
3 MR IRVING: May it please the court. I have three very small
4matters that I would just like to bring to the court's
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
7 MR IRVING: --- and to try to keep it within the five minutes
8that I have set out. Your Lordship has before you a very
9small heap of documents which, as far as I am concerned,
10can be disposed with immediately afterwards. They are
11purely to draw attention to certain points I wish to make.
12The first one is headed August 17th 1942, on the right, a
13translation. It is a two-page document.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
15 MR IRVING: We were dealing, your Lordship will remember, with
16the deportations from France which were discussed between
17Hitler and Himmler at the end of 1942, and the question
18was what was going to happen to them, and there was
19reference to a Sonderlager, a special camp. Your Lordship
20will see within the first paragraph of the translation the
21second sentence: "At first"?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
23 MR IRVING: "At first the evacuated Jews will be accommodated
24in the Auschwitz concentration camp, but a special
25reception camp is to be erected in the Western Reich
26territory." If I may summarize the rest of the document,
1it says: "We will continue deporting train loads of Jews
2from France to avoid this lengthy journey to Auschwitz.
3Can we please set up camps inside the Reich to house these
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is an odd movement, is it not?
6 MR IRVING: It is a very odd movement.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sending them all the way from France to
8Poland and then back again.
9 MR IRVING: And then back again. I cannot speculate as to the
10reason why they should engage in this movement, except
11that Auschwitz does appear to have had a transit camp
12character about it. It had facilities there for stealing,
13robbing; it had facilities there for fumigating and
14checking; it had also the big slave labour camp that was
15attached to the Molovitz factory.
16 There are two reasons, your Lordship has quite
17rightly spotted that fact, and that is I wanted to hint at
18the possibility this may have been the kind of movement --
19remember your Lordship drew attention to the fact that
20people were coming back from the East, from Lemburg to one
21of the camps on the border. Of course, the special
22reception camp, that is, Bezonderes Auffanglager, you will
23see on the next page, my Lord, in line 4, "Bezonderes
24Auffanglager", a special reception camp, is clearly the
25Sonderlager to which reference is later made, in my
1 If I can move rapidly on to the next document,
2my Lord, it is headed "Pocket Dictionary". It is three or
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure I have that.
5 MR IRVING: In that case ----
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Hang ob. I probably have it somewhere.
7 MR IRVING: It will be in white, my Lord, with a green corner
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. Oddly enough, that has not arrived.
10 MR IRVING: My Lord, I went to some trouble over the last few
11months obtaining contemporary a German dictionary by which
12I mean a wartime Third Reich German dictionary so we can
13see what the meaning of words were at that time, rather
14than the modern Langenscheidt being used and relied upon
15by the Defence. This is a 1935 dictionary, my Lord, which
16is this one here. I have just looked up at random some of
17the words we are interested in. The first page is
18"Entfernen" which means "to remove". It has no
19subsidiary sinister meanings.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think anyone is suggesting, except
21in a euphemistic way, that it means anything other than to
22remove or distance.
23 MR IRVING: My Lord, I believe the Defence is relying heavily
24on the fact that I have mistranslated and distorted. In
25my submission, if I use the correct wartime translation of
26the word, then this destroys that particular Defence
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
3 MR IRVING: The next page is "Vernichten", a very sinister
4word, "annihilate and destroy". The next page is
5"Abschaffen" which is quite significant in connection
6with the French movements, you will remember, my Lord,
7because Himmler wrote next to the figures "Abschaffen" in
8his handwriting, and this means "to dismiss".
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the difficulty with "Abschaffen" is
10that it would not normally be applied to people. Is that
11not a fair point?
12 MR IRVING: You are right, my Lord. It could apply to a body
13of people, perhaps, to dismiss them, and I shall be
14making, obviously, my closing speech submissions at some
15length summarising this question of the translations which
16is a thorny one, I appreciate, but in view of the fact the
17Defence do rely on it so heavily for the distortion
18element of their justification; and, finally, my Lord, on
19page 33 of the dictionary we have the famous "Ausrotten"
20and there the 1935 meaning of the word is quite clearly
21"to root out", as you would imagine, the word
22"Ausrotten"; whereas I quite readily accept that nowadays
23in 1999/2000, the word "Ausrotten" quite clearly means
24"liquidate". It has become that, the same as words
25change their meaning over the years.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
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