Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 7: Electronic Edition

Pages 76 - 80 of 199

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    I am not happy with reading these things to myself because
 2 MR RAMPTON:     I see.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It can be determined later what was being
 4read. So can we proceed in this way for the time being?
 5It just saves time.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. It is the middle paragraph on 511.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It does save time.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     The parenthesis in brackets you are looking at which has
11vanished between the two volumes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am looking at two things. In the text of 462 the word
13"Abschaffen" is translated by you as "remove"?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In the footnote it is "dispose of"?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     462, you mean the end note?
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sorry, I call them footnotes. That is very clumsy of me.
18Yes, the end note.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I have given the German and the translation that
20I propose, yes, in each case.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But in the text you have, what shall I say, edged away
22from "disposed of" and replaced it with "removed"?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I have not edged away from anything, Mr Rampton. I have
24just used the word "removed" and in the scientific end
25note I have then given the original German in both
26versions, once "Abschaffen" which I have translated as

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 1"disposed of" and I have said: "In his subsequent memo
 2to the Gestapo Chief Muller, however, he used the milder
 3words 'Verhaftet und abtransportieren' "arrested and
 4transported away".
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But, Mr Irving, you see the word has now been through two
 6processes. It starts off in German. Fair enough, it has
 7to be translated. When that happens in the end note, it
 8is "disposed of". Now it has become "remove"?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, are you familiar with the concept that
10sometimes one word in one language can only be given, you
11can only get the meaning by giving its three alternative
12meanings in another language if you do not have an exact
13synonym between the two languages.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But you do not want to go back to the Langenscheit, to my
15primary meanings; you have been into that trap once
16already this morning.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, Langenscheit is probably not concentrating on the
18fact we are talking about people. They are probably
19talking about Abschaffen of a government or Abschaffen of
20a condition or a situation.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     511 of what? I am so sorry. I am lost.
22 MR RAMPTON:     Of 1991 Hitler's War, my Lord. I was just going
23to compare the two versions. Then at the bottom, still on
241977, Mr Irving, 462, at the bottom of the page, you have
25got a parenthesis which you have already spotted, in
26brackets, "Hitler's notes do not indicate that he

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 1mentioned to Hitler the alternative fate of the others".
 2You and I can disagree about that, but my question is
 3this, or first question is this. What did you mean by
 4"the alternative fate of the others"?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     We do not know because he did not mention it.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I see.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     That is not a weasel answer. I am just saying that there
 8was an alternative fate clearly adumbrated, but we are not
 9told what it was, whether it was being sent for slave
10labour or sent to the gas chambers or what.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Notwithstanding that at this date you still believed in
12the mass murder of the Jews, including a lot of French
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I am being very cautious the way I write. This was a very
15sensitive subject, as you yourself said. I am extremely
16cautions the way I proceed phase by phase when I write
17these narratives.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     When we have got to 1991 on page 511, by which time, on
19your own admission, you have become a hard core
20disbeliever so far as the Holocaust is concerned, that
21little parenthesis has gone, has it not?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Very simple. First of all, the 1991 edition is an
25abridged edition. I do not know if you have ever abridged
26a book, but you go through it cutting out lines which are

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 1superfluous. My editor, Tom Congden, as I mentioned on a
 2previous day, taught me the basic or retaught me the basic
 3principles of bookwriting. One of them is, don't say what
 4somebody didn't do; say what they did do. This is a
 5classic example of me saying what somebody did not do
 6which is totally superfluous to our knowledge.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, no, Mr Irving.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     So I cut out the reference to what somebody did not do. A
 9classic example of what somebody did not do being cut out
10because the book has to be shortened by one-third.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The truth of the matter, Mr Irving -- it must be really
12pretty obvious -- is this, is it not? 1977, you still
13believe in the Holocaust. I use that as shorthand because
14I do not like to use a whole lot of words where two will
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, the factories of death.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In 1977 you believed in the factories of death. That is
18four words, I think?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In 1991 you do not. You have removed the parenthesis
21because you fearful that your readers might think that you
22meant, as indeed you did in that parenthesis, that the
23fate of the other Jews, the alternative fate of the other
24Jews, was going to be death?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     You have no basis for making that suggestion other than
26the purposes of this action which is you are looking,

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 1I think, I will not say desperately, but you are looking
 2for everything you can seize upon ----
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Anyway, the answer is no.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     The answer is no.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     The equally and far more plausible suggestion is that we
 6are cutting out what we possibly can out of the book to
 7trim it down to make room for fresh material.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, it will not be for either you or I to
 9say whether your answers are plausible at the end of this
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I venture to suggest that this is the least perverse
12explanation. You are trying find room to put in an extra
13200 pages of material into a book that we were already
14tying to shorten. So if we put in a paragraph here, a
15parenthesis, which says something did not happen, then
16that is an obvious candidate for the chop.
17     There are very many sentences cut out on every
18page if you compare the pages. I would also add the fact
19that much of the editing was not done by me; it was done
20by the American publishers or by an assistant who I hired
21specifically for the job.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am sorry. I have been given something, Mr Irving. I am
23not being discourteous. I am trying to read it very
24quickly to find out if I need to ask anything about it.
25I think not.

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