Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 7: Electronic Edition

Pages 71 - 75 of 199

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    No, it is not, my Lord. It could be they were going to be
 1actually happened. A very large number of these French
 2Jews from my own work that I have done previously on the
 3biography of Field Marshal Milsche who, on Goring's death,
 4would be in charge of German armaments, in charge of the
 5aircraft factory, construction industry.
 6     It cannot be ignored that I have a lot of
 7expertise, if I can call it like that, from other records
 8and other books that I have written.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, I have found one of these documents,
10but I do not at the moment know which one it is. My Lord,
11it is in H4 (ii) at footnote 183. I think it is at 182
12that I do not have. Have you got that, Mr Irving?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is a typed document. Again it looks as if it has been
15taken from a microfilm, does it not?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is from Himmler because it says so at the top left-hand
18side and there are his initials at the bottom of the page,
19are there not?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     On the right-hand side it says "Feld-Kommandostelle", what
22does that mean?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     "Field Headquarters".
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     12th December 1942.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry. It just says "December 1942".
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You are quite right. I am sorry. I misread that.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     I would draw attention to that because this was Himmler's
 2way of doing things, that he would always handwrite the
 3day in. In other words, this is an authentic document. We
 4are not challenging that. But there is a reason to draw
 5attention to that because of something that comes up in
 6later documents.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, I follow, and it has the top security classification?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     "Geheime Reichssache", yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     For an SS document?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is written to Muller. Now I need your help -- you are
12very good at this -- can you please translate the text for
14 A. [Mr Irving]     You are too kind. "I ordain that from now on the Jews
15that are still on hand in France and also of the Hungarian
16and Rumanian Jews, all those who have influential
17relatives in America, are to be concentrated in a special
18camp. There they are, indeed, to work but under
19conditions that they remain sound and alive. This kind of
20Jews are valuable hostages for us. I am thinking of a
21figure of around 10,000" ----
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     --- "in this connection".
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     10,000 from all three countries?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There are special Jews who are preserved because they have

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 2 A. [Mr Irving]     That is right, yes.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Or because they have influential relatives in
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     That is right.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Even suppose we divide 10,000 in three equal parts
 7and subtract it from 600,000, we have the best part of
 8600,000 still left who have nothing whatever to do with
 9this piece of paper, do they?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is one camp?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Einem sonderlager?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes? The hostages' camp.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Tell me about the other camps which you say in
16Germany ----
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- which is the destination for the remaining whatever it
19is, 597,000?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure he did say that.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I certainly did not say those figures. I do not
22think we accept the figures.
23 MR RAMPTON:     I said I was challenging the proposition that
24"Abschaffen" meant "transported" and I think Mr Irving
25said, "And, what is more, we know where they were being
26transported to, camps being built in Germany".

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Did we not then ask when French Jews he was
 2talking about was going to Germany?
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Perhaps he would answer that question?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     The balance ----
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you elucidate because we are really
 6concerned with the other French Jews and I think I have
 7put the question already.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     The balance were to be departed to Germany, but
 9that is not a reference to those other Jews, that
10document, is it?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, Professor Longerich has given us a rather thin gruel
12of documents on which to draw our conclusions, but I am
13familiar with the documents that I have read and I am
14quite happy to bring them to the court on Monday, that
15special camps were being erected at this time to receive
16these French Jews who were being deported, not just one
17camp, but more than one camp. Eichmann is involved in
18the construction, if my memory is correct -- it is about
19two or three months sine I read these documents -- and
20from my own personal knowledge, large numbers of French
21Jews were put to work in the German Arms industry.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So they all went to camps in Germany, these
23other, balance of the French Jews?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, I am not going to say "all".
25 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     The vast part?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     That would be something I could not swear to.

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 1 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     The vast part?
 2 MR RAMPTON:     I would be very grateful and I am going to leave
 3it there for the moment.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I shall bring the documents and I will make a note to.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you bring the documents, then it is no good my pouring
 6over documents; may I copy them and given them to my
 7experts to look at?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I will fax them over the weekend, the ones that we
 9intend to rely on.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Would your Lordship forgive me for one moment? Mr Irving,
11could you find page 462 of Hitler's War 1977?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And page 511 of Hitler's War 1991. If you would look,
14page 462 of 1977 falls neatly into two halves. I do not
15need you to read it out and I am not going to either.
16Could you read that last paragraph on 462?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     "When Heinreich Himmler came to headquarters" ----
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think to yourself.
19 MR RAMPTON:     No, just to yourself. The people in this
20courtroom are going to get tired of hearing our voices,
21I would imagine, Mr Irving.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you. Now would you read to yourself in the same way
24the middle paragraph on page 511?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not happy with reading these things to myself because
26the court transcript does not know what I am reading to

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