Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 7: Electronic Edition
Pages 61 - 65 of 199
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1 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] "Remove", right.
2 A. [Mr Irving] It is a neutral word, in other words, my Lord, with no
3kind of -- yes, you have.
4 MR RAMPTON: The root of the word -- I am doing a little bit of
5etymology myself, Mr Irving, if you will forgive me ----
6 A. [Mr Irving] I thought that was butterfly clothing.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] --- the root of the word is "create". So the word means
8literally "discreate", does it not?
9 A. [Mr Irving] I disagree. "Schaffen" is one of those words like "get".
10It is a word which has any number of different meanings,
11like get in, get out, get up, get hot, and so on. It is a
12multi-purpose word, a multi-purpose root.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton] You quite like my little schoolboy -- it is not mine, it
14is my son's -- Langenscheit, do you not?
15 A. [Mr Irving] You are going to ambush me, I can sense it.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] You actually put your head in the noose yourself,
17Mr Irving. You asked for it literally. "Abschaffen",
18verb transitive, abolish, discontinue, repeal, abrogate,
19redress, suppress, do away with, get rid of, give up
20keeping, end of definitions?
21 A. [Mr Irving] I like the tenth meaning there, "do away with". But we
22are helped, fortunately, as I have mentioned, by the fact
23that we have a typed version of this document also.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton] And?
25 A. [Mr Irving] On that it says "Abtransportieren" which means "transport
1 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes. That is exactly my point, as you probably
2understood, Mr Irving. When Himmler is sitting in private
3with Hitler, in response to his request for information or
4instructions what to do with these French Jews, and I am
5coming to the number in a moment, these 6 to 700,000
6French Jews, he writes down, not the word
7"Abtransportieren", or whatever it is, he writes down the
9 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] Now, when it comes to the point about what is to go into
11the official record and how the orders are to be
12transmitted onwards via Muller, it translates itself as a
13necessary first step towards extermination, "arrest and
15 A. [Mr Irving] Well, if we leave out the bit about "as a necessary first
16step towards deportation", yes, that is absolutely what it
17says, but the rest was your personal interpolation.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] Of course, but, you see, Mr Irving, do we find this
19anywhere in your books, this ----
20 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] --- Himmler log entry?
22 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] And you ----
24 A. [Mr Irving] I am the first person to have found it and have used it,
25if I can keep on making that point.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] I have not the references so maybe you will tell me and
1I will look at them later. How in those books do you
2translate the word "Abschaffen".
3 A. [Mr Irving] Bear with me for a moment.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where is it, "Hitler's War"?
5 A. [Mr Irving] It will be in "Hitler's War" in all the editions.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us look at 1991, shall we? Are you on
8 A. [Mr Irving] Well, I only have the bound volume of the original
10 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] No, all right. Let us use '77.
11 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I think in 1991 it is likely to be in
12part 2 because the book is written more or less ----
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but Mr Irving has the 1977 version, so
14shall we use that? It will be part 2 of that too, will it
16 MR RAMPTON: Yes. (To the witness): Can you tell us, roughly
17speaking, where 1943 starts in Hitler's War 1977?
18 A. [Mr Irving] About page 450.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] Thank you. So it will be volume 2 of that, my Lord.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If we are looking for it, we will take a lot
21of time. Do you think we might come back to this?
22 A. [Mr Irving] My Lord, I will come back to it.
23 MR RAMPTON: I would be grateful. It is my fault, but the
24index does not help.
25 A. [Mr Irving] So your point is that Himmler writes down the word that
26may actually have been used between the two of them.
1 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes.
2 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] May have been. I quite agree it may not be verbatim
4Hitler's word, but Himmler has certainly written down, has
5he not, what he thinks Hitler's intention is, has he not?
6 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] Then when we get what one might call the bureaucratic type
8version, that word is transformed ----
9 A. [Mr Irving] Unambiguously.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] Well, as you say -- into another form which is deport?
11 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes?
13 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] And, of course, as one must expect, there is then an order
15from Himmler to Muller that they should be deported?
16 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] You grumble about Himmler's exaggeration of the numbers.
18Have you noticed a suggestion -- it is in that Witte --
19that in that figure he was including all the Jews in the
20French colonies, particularly those in North Africa?
21 A. [Mr Irving] That is not what the document actually says. It says Jews
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] You will find that in note 44.
24 A. [Mr Irving] --- Jews in France. I know that the French consider those
25colonies, or some of them, to be part of the metropolitan
26in France, but I think that in this document that would be
1stretching the point. I am not going to quibble about
2that. I just wanted to draw attention to the tendency to
4 Q. [Mr Rampton] It might not be an intentional exaggeration, might it? It
5might be -- I am not saying whether it was or not --
6I quite agree with you there were never 600,000 Jews
7living in France at this time.
8 A. [Mr Irving] Let alone 700,000.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure it really matters very much.
10 MR RAMPTON: It does not matter at all. But then what happened
11next, leave out paragraph 19.8 of Longerich, apparently on
12the same day (and I am afraid I do not have this document)
13"Himmler made a suggestion or proposal to Hitler that
14there should be a work camp set up for Jewish hostages
15from France, Hungary and Rumania", three different
16countries, "for a total 10,000 people"?
17 A. [Mr Irving] Yes, except we are not be given the actual quotation or
18document or it is just ----
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] No.
20 A. [Mr Irving] --- summarized.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do you know of that document?
22 A. [Mr Irving] This is an important point, because there are other
23documents that he does not refer to.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton] This is in the IFZ, this document.
25 A. [Mr Irving] It, presumably, comes from one of the Himmler microfilms.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes. You do not recall seeing this document?
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