Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 7: Electronic Edition

Pages 56 - 60 of 199

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    I am going to read on, if I may: "After the
 1and deported. This should take place, however, only once
 2he has spoken with Laval about it. It is a matter of
 36-700,000 Jews.
 4     "Two months later, in February 1943, Eichmann,
 5on a brief visit to Paris visited submitted a maximum
 6programme for the deportation of all Jews living in France
 7including those with French citizenship.
 8     "At the meeting on 10 December 1942 Himmler
 9presented Hitler with a proposal to set up a work camp for
10Jewish hostages from France, Hungary and Romania, for
11altogether 10,000 people. According to a handwritten note
12by Himmler, Hitler accepted this proposal. After the
13meeting, Himmler sent an order to Muller to concentrate
14these 10,000 people in a 'special camp' (Sonderlager). He
15stated: 'Certainly they should work there, but under
16conditions whereby they remain healthy and alive'".
17     So far as the documentary references there are
18concerned, or citations are concerned, Mr Irving, do you
19quarrel with anything that Dr Longerich has written?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     With very many things, yes. First of all, the figure of
21600,000 to 700,000 is completely improper. I am not
22saying it is not a genuine document, but it is
23characteristic of the gross exaggeration that SS indulged
24in. There were not 6 or 700,000 Jews in France. There
25were a total of 240,000 Jews, of whom about 40,000 had
26already been deported by the time this conference took

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 1place, so it is an exaggeration by a factor of three or
 2four. It is characteristic of what goes on. We were
 3talking yesterday about this bus in Serbia with 90,000
 4people or 70,000 people being gassed in the space of 35
 5days. That would have meant 38 people being gassed every
 6hour in each bus. That kind of figure is completely
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Pause there. That is the first thing you do not like
 9about this, but it is not a criticism of Dr Longerich's
10account of the document, is it?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     You asked me if I had any comments and you gave a very
12pertinent comment, that this is characteristic of the
13exaggeration which goes on when we come to numbers.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I follow that. That is a criticism of Himmler, not of
16 A. [Mr Irving]     I do have criticisms of Longerich, of course.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We will come to those in a moment. Let us deal with one
18thing at a time, otherwise we are going to be shadow
19boxing and I do not like that, Mr Irving.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     You are relying here on the handwritten note. Of course,
21Himmler typed up a memorandum in which he used different
22words after this.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, please do not second guess. Do not jump your
24fences until you get to them, please?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     You asked me for comments, Mr Rampton. I am sure you do
26not like the comments I give you.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I asked you for your first comment. I am now going to deal
 2with your first comment, and I am going to deal with your
 3comments, to use your word, seriatim. Could Mr Irving and
 4his Lordship please be given these documents? This has a
 5marking on it. The other document your Lordship can just
 6throw away afterwards. It is only in case there is
 7anything in it which Mr Irving wants to refer to.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where shall we put them?
 9 MR RAMPTON:     The first one is probably going to go eventually
10into the core file, but it is a Longerich document which
11was, until last night, not there. I now have a copy of
12it. It could, my Lord, at the moment just go perhaps at
13the front or back of Longerich, part one, or, as I have
14done, hole punched on the other side opposite the passage
15in the text. The other two pieces of paper, my Lord,
16which I have stapled together so that it is clear they are
17separate are two pages from the Himmler dienstkalender?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     From this book?
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, that is right, by Witte and others, the version of
20it. One reason to give your Lordship the dienstkalender
21extract is that the way in which the words are printed in
22the dienstkalender shows that this is a document which
23comes from the Berlin archive and not from the recently
24discovered Moscow archive?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I have had this one for a long time. I have had this one
26for 30 years.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, exactly. That is point number one. Point number 2,
 2if one looks at the Himmler manuscript, at the very top
 3right hand corner, somebody has written 10.12.42. Your
 4Lordship need not look at it, but it is to be noted,
 5I expect Mr Irving knows this, that the editors of the
 6dienstkalender say that that has been written in by an
 7unknown hand?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     It was not on it when I had it because that is not on my
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Exactly, so I am not asking anybody to accept that that is
11Himmler's dating.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     No, the date is 10th December. I had a lot of
13trouble -- these are all loose pages in the original file
14but, using internal evidence, you can put them back into
15the correct sequence.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not let us get into the minutia if we do
17not need to be.
18 MR RAMPTON:     No. I do not need to know the history. I just
19need to know whether the date ----
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The figure of 600 to 700,000 Jews is
21challenged as being a wild exaggeration.
22 MR RAMPTON:     Against that entry, on the manuscript "Juden in
23Frankreich 6-700,000 zunstiger Finde", is the word, is it
24not, in Himmler's spidery Gothic, "Abschaffen"?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, in green crayon actually - "Abschaffen". Can we look
26in your Langenscheit dictionary?

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, because if we are agreed that is what it
 2says, let us move on.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     No, will you stop asking me questions, please,
 4Mr Irving.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not asking questions. I am stating that it is the
 6wrong translation by Longerich. He said quite happily
 7"Abschaffen" means "abolish" which he then by a quantum
 8leap says "exterminate".
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You must give me credit for having had some foresight
10about what you are going to say. Give us, please, your
11version of the word "Abschaffen"?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, why don't we just see what Langenscheidt, the
13dictionary, says?
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, tell me what you think it means.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     "Abschaffen" means ----
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Get rid of?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I mean, even "get rid of" in this kind of context is
18difficult, but we are aided by the fact that there is
19another version of this document which you have not put
20before the court, Mr Rampton.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I have not got it.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us do one thing at a time. What do you
23say "Abschaffen" signifies? Do not worry about the
24translation of it, but what do you say that Himmler had in
25mind when he wrote "Abschaffen" against the French Jews?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     "Remove".

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