Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 7: Electronic Edition

Pages 21 - 25 of 199

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    I think, My Lord, that I have stated on several occasions
 1fact, to the question of the mixed marriages and mixed
 2races was a thorn in the side of the Nazis because they
 3did not know how to treat them, which side of the line to
 4put them.
 5     I cannot keep on, in a book which is for
 6publication, coming back and reminding readers of things
 7that the intelligent reader will be carrying in his brain
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, Mr Rampton was asking you about the
10passage at page 388, I think.
11 MR RAMPTON:     I was, yes.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I think that the lines, about 10 lines down, where
13Goebbels is quoted as saying: "For the time being that it
14be concentrated in the East, undoubtedly, there will be a
15multitude of personal tragedies, but this is
16unavoidable". We then go straight on to talk about the
17March 6th conference.
18     I am making it in a way that a responsible
19writer should. I did not want to put the whole contents
20of this 10 page memorandum into a book at this point.
21That would have been acres of sludge again.
22 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, I am going to put it once more and
23I cannot go on making speeches through questions which are
24never answered. The fact is you that you led the reader
25in this passage to believe that what was discussed at the
26conference on 6th March was the fate of the Jews

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 1generally, that that then went to Hitler, via Lammers, and
 2Hitler made a ruling that the fate of the Jews generally
 3was not to be considered or discussed at that time. That
 4is a total distortion of the evidence which you had before
 5you when you wrote that.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I totally disagree with you, Mr Rampton. The evidence of
 7Bohle, that there was talk there of delivering the Jews to
 8the East like so many head of cattle, that is no longer
 9talking about the mixed marriage problem. They are
10talking about the overall Holocaust in the way that I have
11accepted it can be defined and perceived.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you can find in this memorandum which you have cited in
13your book reference to the general question, please show
14it to us, otherwise that is my last question.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, I have referred to the fact that I do not just
16rely on one document. I do not jump from mountain peek to
17mountain peek. I look at all the surrounding hills as
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There we are. That is the Schlegelberger
21 MR RAMPTON:     I think, my Lord, that will do.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
23 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I was not intending to embark on anything
24new at the moment.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the plan is we have your witness so
26he is not kept waiting.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     As Professor Cameron Watt is here, he had better
 2give evidence.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is what I think so, Mr Irving, if you
 4would like to revert to your role as counsel?
 5 < (The witness stood down)
 6 MR IRVING:     Can Professor Cameron Watt be called?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, of course.
 9< Examined by MR IRVING.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Watt, would you be more comfortable
11sitting down? You are welcome to sit down.
12 MR IRVING:     I was going to make precisely the same suggestion,
13my Lord. (To the witness):     Professor Watt, thank you
14very much for coming today. You are appearing, of course,
15under a witness summons. I want to make that quite plain
16to the court and you are not appearing voluntarily, so no
17odium can attach to you for coming and being called for
18the defence, for my defence, in other words, for the
19Plaintiff in this action.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Shall we introduce Professor Watt and ask him
21about his background?
22 MR IRVING:     Yes. Professor Watt, your name is Donald Cameron
24 A. [Professor Cameron Watt]     It is.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are Emeritus Professor of International History at the
26London School of Economics and Political Science?

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 1 A. [Professor Cameron Watt]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     How long were you teaching at the London School of
 4 A. [Professor Cameron Watt]     From 1954 to 1993. 39 years altogether.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     39 years a Professor of History at the London School of
 7 A. [Professor Cameron Watt]     I did not have the rank of Professor until 1971, but I was
 8on the staff.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     You enjoy the reputation of being something of a grand
10gentleman, a doyen, of the historical profession in this
12 A. [Professor Cameron Watt]     I think it is very difficult for an individual to say what
13their reputation is in the minds of other people.
14I certainly can only say that I have held a number of
15senior positions in international organizations devoted to
16historical research.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Thank you. You describe yourself as an historian, writer
18and broadcaster. You are all three things?
19 A. [Professor Cameron Watt]     These are the various sources of my income, yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     You were educated at Rugby and at Oriel College in Oxford;
21is that correct?
22 A. [Professor Cameron Watt]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     You served in the Army in the Intelligence Corp.?
24 A. [Professor Cameron Watt]     I did.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that you were with the British troops in Austria in
26the occupation forces after World War II?

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 1 A. [Professor Cameron Watt]     From 1947 to '48, yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     1947 to '48. Would you tell the court, Professor Watt,
 3what you were engaged with in the years following your
 4Army service?
 5 A. [Professor Cameron Watt]     Following my Army service, I had three years reading
 6politics, philosophy and economics at Oxford because only
 7that way could you deal with 20th century history at that
 8time; and I indulged myself in the usual activities of
 9undergraduate. That is to say, I wrote, I played opera, I
10ran the Poetry Society -- I had a number of activities of
11that kind.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     And you became a member of the Foreign Office Research
14 A. [Professor Cameron Watt]     I was attached to it, yes -- I do not think I was ever a
15full member -- from 1951 to 1954, and then again on a
16part-time basis from 1957 to 1960.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Interesting. So you are quite familiar in a way
18with the kinds of documents, Foreign Office, diplomatic
19documents, that we have been looking at in this court this
20morning, for example. The ones with the serial numbers,
21the six digit serial numbers stamped on the bottom?
22 A. [Professor Cameron Watt]     The ones with the serial numbers are the ones -- those
23serial numbers are the way we recorded them on our index
24cards. They represent the serial number of the individual
25film and the frame number of the particular page.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     

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