Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 7: Electronic Edition
Pages 191 - 195 of 199
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1 A. [Mr Irving] And that they are at risk of being of compared with
2Dr Goebbels if they do?
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] You never ever answer my question, Mr Irving.
4 A. [Mr Irving] That was a very good answer, I believe.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] No, Mr Irving, because you do not listen or because you do
6not want to listen. My question was not about sober
7sentiment, ill-conceived though it may be. My question
8was about the wording, the language, of that passage that
10 A. [Mr Irving] Which particular words are we looking at here? Can you
11pick on any particular inflammatory words?
12 Q. [Mr Rampton] Please go back to page 22. I am not going to read it out
14 A. [Mr Irving] Just the Goebbels type of words.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] "Because if it is" down to the bottom of the page ending
16with the word "Jewish comment".
17 A. [Mr Irving] Is the word "Jewish" a Goebbels word perhaps?
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] No. Please just quietly re-read that section of what you
19said to yourself and tell me when you have got to the
20bottom of the page.
21 A. [Mr Irving] I think I am entitled to know which words you consider are
22typical of Dr Goebbels.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Will you please read it and then I will tell you.
24 A. [Mr Irving] My Lord, will you direct him to identify the words he
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you know it by heart then you do not need
1to read it.
2 A. [Mr Irving] I do not know it by heart.
3 MR RAMPTON: The whole passage.
4 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] It is redolent of animosity, hostility, contempt, spite,
6malignantly, just like Dr Goebbels articles in Das Reich?
7 A. [Mr Irving] Just like Winston Churchill talking about Adolf Hitler if
8you want to put it like that. Any number of people who
9are capable speakers are capable of using language.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] Absolutely, you have got it in one, Mr Irving.
11Mr Churchill rallied this country to the flag during the
12war by being spiteful and beastly about Adolf Hitler. The
13difference is, unlikely Dr Goebbels, Winston Churchill had
14a very good reason to be spiteful.
15 A. [Mr Irving] But do not these particular gentleman who I have
16identified by name deserve our contempt, or are you
17supporter of these gentlemen who bilked ordinary people
18out of thousands pounds and their entire life savings as
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] You do not have to give a list of names. All you need to
21say is the sober sentiment, if you believe it. The
22trouble is or one of the problems with the Holocaust is
23that it is sometimes apt to protect some Jewish people who
24have broken the law?
25 A. [Mr Irving] No, I gave chapter and verse. These are specific
26instances which were probably in the news at the time, I
1think Ivan Boesky was in the news at that time, Mr
2Gutfreund, Mr Milken was certainly in the news at that
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us move on.
5 MR RAMPTON: Yes I am trying to.
6 A. [Mr Irving] If you cannot identify which particular words you are
7identifying with Dr. Goebbels ----
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] I am looking at the flavour of the whole passages.
9 A. [Mr Irving] Anybody can play that game, Mr Rampton can.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So am I. We are moving on.
11 MR RAMPTON: And so is his Lordship. I am grateful.
12 A. [Mr Irving] Would you accuse Professor Peter Novac also using the
13language of Dr Goebbels in his ----
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] No, because he does not write like that.
15 A. [Mr Irving] He is a Professor and he is Jewish, so he is allowed to do
16it but non-Jews are excluded.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You can deal with this in your own evidence,
18if you wish.
19 A. [Mr Irving] I certainly shall, my Lord.
20 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, this is Chelsea Town Hall. This is tab
2111 of the same file.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page 2.
23 MR RAMPTON: Page 2, yes. A couple of a very short passages on
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The first one is by the upper hole punch.
26 MR RAMPTON: Yes, that is right. Say you, MR IRVING:
1 "If you look at my great Adolf Hitler biography
2here, this bumper Adolf Hitler biography that we have only
3just published, in fact it literally arrived off the
4printing presses today, you won't find the Holocaust
5mentioned in one line, not even a footnote. Why should we
6if something did not happen and you don't even dignify it
7with a footnote". That is in plain terms an assertion by
8you that the Holocaust did not happen?
9 A. [Mr Irving] We have not even heard the word "Holocaust".
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is a speech you made, is it not?
11 MR RAMPTON: I am so sorry, Mr Irving, look at the penultimate
12line of the passage I have just read..
13 A. [Mr Irving] Am I looking at the wrong passage?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I it must, because it starts, "if You
15look at my great Adolf Hitler biography", which sounds as
16if it could be you speaking.
17 A. [Mr Irving] I see right, yes.
18 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Did you say that?
19 A. [Mr Irving] Well, obviously the reference, as we have now found out,
20the word "Holocaust" has been taken out of the second
21volume, yes. You will not find "Holocaust" mentioned in
23 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Because it did not happen, that is what you are saying?
24 A. [Mr Irving] Well, I do not want to quibble about this too much, but we
25do not really know what we are talking about when we are
26saying if something did not happen. I know his Lordship
1will interrupt and say straightaway you are referring to
2the Holocaust, but we do not know how much of a pause
3there is there. We do not know what emphasis is made
4here. We have to look at the whole speech. The
5references later on you will see to the bars of soap and
6so on, which clearly did not happen because that has now
7been admitted. I mean that is what we are building up
8to. This is a topic sentence.
9 MR RAMPTON: I know it is late but I really do not think you
10are doing yourself justice. Look down to the bottom page
12 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton] Read it out loud, will you?
14 A. [Mr Irving] Well, I am looking at a paragraph which you want skipped.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] No.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What is there in there that you really derive
17any assistance from?
18 A. [Mr Irving] "Two years from now nobody in the world will believe in
19these absurd legends any longer. They already don't
20believe in the absurd legends of Jewish concentration camp
21prisoners being turned into bars of soap, because Jad
22Vaschen has now formally admitted that that was a lie."
23So this is what I am talking about, if things do not
24happen they do not deserve a footnote. So I am being
25specific in what follows by what I mean.
26 MR RAMPTON:
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