Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 7: Electronic Edition

Pages 186 - 190 of 199

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    I am still in transcript No. 9. "I don't see any reason
 1to be tasteful about Auschwitz." You have heard this
 2before of course. "It's baloney. It's a legend. Once we
 3admit the fact that it was a brutal slave labour camp and
 4large numbers of people did die, as large numbers of
 5innocent people died elsewhere in the war. Why believe
 6the rest of the baloney? I say quite tastelessly in fact
 7that more people died on the back seat of Edward Kennedy's
 8car at Chappaquidick than ever died in gas chamber", note
 9you do not say "the gas chamber", "a gas chamber in
10Auschwitz. Laughter." Laughter, Mr Irving?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     No laughter is just once there, Mr Rampton.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Laughter. That is three times.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     That is three times, Mr Rampton. Now you are getting
14appreciative laughter from your audience.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why should your audience think that what you yourself
16describe as "tasteless", why should they think that is
17funny?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Possibly because you omitted the beginning of that
19paragraph, Mr Rampton. Can I read it? "Why did Gorbochov
20release the Auschwitz records? A very interesting
21question. This was in September 21st 1989. Tass, the
22Soviet News Agency, announced that they had 'now
23found' all the death books of Auschwitz which sent a
24shudder through every Jewish so-called refugee around the
25world notice word so-called around the world." Notice the
26word "so-called" around the world. "Every so-called

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 1survivor of the Holocaust or survivor of Auschwitz, people
 2who claimed they had been in Auschwitz. When they heard
 3that the Russians announced that they had found all the
 4death books and the entire filing cards of every prisoner
 5who had been in Auschwitz, suddenly there was a lot
 6reshuffling went on. Ely Weasel, for example, no longer
 7claimed to be a survivor of Auschwitz. He suddenly
 8decided he was a survivor of Dachau or Vukenvau. He was
 9not even quite sure about that."
10We are talking here about the spurious survivors
11of the Holocaust which is the second S in that word you
12are just going to come to which has been left out of the
13transcript.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Will you read on the next sentence, please, about
15Mr Wiesel. "In fact he seems to have done quite a cook's
16tour of the different concentration camps. Laughter."
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What is it, do you think, that you your audience is
19laughing about?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Because they know that Ely Wiesel is a particularly
21unpopular character. Even the Jewish community holds him
22as being particularly unpopular because of his posturing.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sorry, posturing, what is the posturing?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     He is a poser. He is on all the presidential committees.
25He is on all the Holocaust memorial museum committees. He
26has made a lot of money out of the Holocaust, and yet he

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 1cannot quite remember which camp he was in, my Lord.
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Is that so surprising?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     If I was in Auschwitz ----
 4 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Tell me. I would like to know your answer.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, if I was in Auschwitz I would remember it was
 6Auschwitz and not Vukenvau or Bergen Belsen or Dachau.
 7That is what his problem is, my Lord. The world is full
 8of people come forward and claim to have been survivors of
 9Auschwitz, most recently the notorious case of Benjamin
10Wilkomersky who was recently exposed by the BBC. I find
11these spurious -- I have the utmost sympathy for people
12genuinely suffered the torments and horrors of Auschwitz
13and these other camps, and let there be no doubt
14whatsoever about that, but the spurious survivors who are
15trying to cash in now by saying they too were there, that
16is the people I reserve this association of spurious
17survivors of the Holocaust, "the arseholes" as they
18referred to here. I agree that is a frightfully tasteless
19word to use and I would not normally use it in public.
20But I have the greatest contempt for these people who are
21trying to climb on the Holocaust bandwagon.
22 MR RAMPTON:     And it is not a laughing matter if they should do
23so, is it, Mr Irving?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     These unfortunates who claim they were there and never
25been anywhere near Auschwitz, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     People who fraudulently, if there are any such people,

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 1people who fraudulently ----
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     You do not believe the case of Mr Wilkomersky who said he
 3had been there?
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I know well about the case of Mr Wilkomersky and I am not
 5going to discuss ----
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     So the word "if" is misplaced.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is not misplaced necessarily, Mr Irving. We are not
 8going to, unless his Lordship tells us we are, going to
 9examine the case of Mr Benjamin Wilkomersky, the Swiss
10orchestral musician, in this court, if you do not mind.
11Mr Irving, you will not answer my questions, I know,
12because you do not like them, but please answer: Why
13should such a serious matter as fraudulent Holocaust or
14Auschwitz pretence or posturing provoke laughter from your
15audience?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Because there is something ludicrous about it, something
17pathetic about it, and the notion that a lot of these
18spurious survivors had been found out by the Russians of
19all people who were publishing the index cards, made known
20that they had found the index cards of everyone who was a
21genuine survivor which promoted the scurrying that went on
22for the few weeks after that. That is what provoked the
23laughter I am afraid.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can I suggest something completely different, and perhaps
25a little nearer to the truth of the matter. That remark,
26those remarks about spurious survivors, the remark about

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 1Edward Kennedy's car at Chappaquidick, the remark over the
 2page about arseholes, as we call them in this country,
 3provoked the laughter they did because you were amongst an
 4audience of anti-Semitics, these remarks were intended to
 5provoke that kind of laughter. You can see that, if you
 6like, from the very way in which they are phrased?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think so. I think I was amongst an audience of
 8antiphonies.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Did not you notice anything when you were talking about
10the way in which the Holocaust is used to protect
11frightful Jewish criminals like Boesky, did you not detect
12anything in the wording of that passage reminiscent of
13Dr Goebbels in it, in the way you relish the dishonesty of
14these Jewish people?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     I relish the dishonesty of the Jews?
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So it seems to me, Mr Irving, please comment on that?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Now I am stuck here with a bit of a problem, because
18Jewish historians have made precisely the same comment
19I have. The Jewish community have made precisely the same
20comment that I have. Jewish sociologists have made
21precisely the same comment that I have. Are suggesting
22that only Jewish sociologists are entitled to make this
23kind of hostile comment about the reasons for the
24propagation of the Holocaust story, and that non-Jewish
25historians are to be excluded from this kind of comment?
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I did not ask you about the sober sentiment.

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