Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 7: Electronic Edition

Pages 181 - 185 of 199

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    Of course, Mr Irving. Page 22. I am going to read from
 1piece of pleading that I read out to you, from the
 2beginning of the big paragraph about a quarter of the way
 3down the page: "There is more to come. 'Irving has been
 4welcomed in Ottawa. Less publicized but no less
 5disgusting are Irving's on women. He argues that women's
 6brains are 10 per cent smaller than men's". This is now
 7Mr Irving speaking:
 8     "You see they are scraping, it is true, they
 9are scraping the bottom of the barrel now. They are
10trying to appeal to all the organizations in Ottawa who
11are being called together under a mass demonstration
12against the gays, the lesbians, the communists, the trade
13unions, all these people".
14 A. [Mr Irving]     You will notice I do not mention the Jews there even in
15this audience, is that not surprising for an
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us read it through.
18 MR RAMPTON:     "All these people are being called out to
19demonstrate against me on October 6th." Was that true?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, we had rented the biggest hall in Ottawa for me to
21speak in and massive attempts were being made to shut me
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "It brings us back to the fact that what they are really
24after is to try to stop me speaking, because when I speak
25audiences go away worried about whether the gas chambers"
26plural "and death camps" plural "and the factories of

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 1death" plural "really did exist or is this really the
 2biggest lie of the 20th Century?"
 3     I will stop there. Do not comment. Please
 4listen to my question. The answer you gave me a moment
 5ago to the effect that when you referred to the Auschwitz
 6legend and there being no gas chambers, was in fact
 7intended and never intended to refer to anything but the
 8single reconstructed gas chamber at Auschwitz one. That
 9answer was complete tosh, was it not, Mr Irving?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     We would have to go back and look at the precise wording
11I used. I think both statements are entirely
12supportable. The fact that audiences go away worried that
13if this is true about this site, what about the other
14sites, it is quite a natural reaction.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We will pass now to page 31. You say with some pride,
16I think, Mr Irving, and I am afraid I do have to take this
17up now because it is part of my case, I am sorry I did not
18spot it earlier, proudly as though you scored some kind of
19wizard point, there is no reference to the Jews amongst
20all that stuff about the gays, the lesbians, the
21communists and the trade unions. Let me read on.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     What page are we on?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Page 22. Let me read on. This is one of some of the
24remarks which I shall rely on at the end of the case.
25     "Is this really the biggest lie of the 20th
26Century, because if it is the biggest lie, then it has a

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 1corollary, and that is that hundreds of millions of
 2innocent people who have been bamboozled", I will miss out
 3the "who" I think, "hundreds of millions of innocent
 4people have been bamboozled, and they have been bamboozled
 5for a purpose. And the purpose I think we can all say on
 6reflection, looking over our own perception of the media,
 7is that every time a Jewish financier, a John Guttfreund,
 8the Salomon brothers or Ivan Boesky or Ernest Saunders or
 9one of these, or Michael Milken, everyone time one of them
10is caught with his hands deep in the till and he has, yes,
11that's true, he has undoubtedly bilked hundreds of
12thousands of investors out of every penny they have
13got" ----
14 A. [Mr Irving]     That was Mr Michael Milken. He went to prison for it.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Please let Mr Rampton continue.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving. "Michael Milken and the rest of them,
17people have gone to the wall, they have put all their
18money into junk bonds and the rest of it, and these
19financiers have laughed like Ivan Boesky paid $100 million
20fine on the instruction of the American Government and
21they still laughed because they can afford it".
22     Now what is that passage?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you read the next three or four lines.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Precisely.
25 MR RAMPTON:     "When you read this kind of story and if you
26realize that they are Jewish, then the invitation is that

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 1the man in the street should say: Yes, but they have
 2suffered, haven't they? They did the have Holocaust."
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is it.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     What is the point of putting that glorious purple
 6prose passage into this speech about Auschwitz, tell me?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Because first of all may I say this is not only my
 8opinion, even leading Jewish experts like Professor Peter
 9Novac of the University Chicago quite recently within the
10last two or three months ----
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Answer for yourself, Mr Irving.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     --- has stated precisely the same point. They have said
13that the whole of the Holocaust industry has been
14generated in order to prevent, to create a kind of safety
15curtain, a fire wall which protects, for example, as
16Professor Peter Novic says, the activities of the Israeli
17Government on the West Bank, which protects, for example,
18the entire Jewish population in the United States from
19criticism to which they might otherwise be subjected.
20I think this is a perfectly reasonable statement and
21I would not have made it if I did not know that I was
22buttressed by leading Jewish authorities who are equally
23aware of precisely the same origins or possible origins of
24part of the present promotion of the Holocaust story. We
25will be listening to one of my own experts on this,
26Professor McDonald, on precisely this matter when the time

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 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So the Holocaust is a kind of a lie dreamt up
 3in order to excuse crooked Jewish financiers?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I would like to endorse your Lordship's wording but
 5I cannot. I did not put it like that.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What are you saying if you are not saying that?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     I have said here that there is a body of opinion which
 8says that one possible cause for the promotion of this
 9particular legend is the fact they find it serves a
10purpose to protect their community from criticism which
11might otherwise be levelled against them because of their
12activities in the world of finance, or because of their
13brutality on the West Bank or whatever. I certainly would
14not have made that kind of statement had I not known that
15senior members of their own community are worried on
16precisely the same score. I mentioned the name of
17Professor Peter Novic of the University of Chicago whose
18book is about to be published in this country too
19I believe. They cannot be insulated from criticism just
20because of the Holocaust, and I think most members of the
21Jewish community would find it repugnant to suggest that
22they were or they should be.
23 MR RAMPTON:     Can we move on in this transcript, please,
24Mr Irving, to page 31, bottom of the page.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     This is transcript No. 9.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     

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