Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 7: Electronic Edition

Pages 176 - 180 of 199

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    I could say there is no Chinaman sitting in your team, and
 1your team. Both facts are equally correct if there is not
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, Mr Irving, that is, I am afraid, a rather poor
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     It is an exact parallel.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, you said at the Chelsea Press Conference, the
 7Leuchter Press Conference, that there were no gas chambers
 8at Auschwitz or elsewhere?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, you are showing us one speech in Calgary and
10suddenly you switch to Chelsea.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am going to show you a dozen references.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, shall we deal with this one first?
13 MR RAMPTON:     When you made that remark, am I right, am I
14not ----
15 A. [Mr Irving]     If there was no gas chamber at Auschwitz, then there were
16no gas chambers at Auschwitz.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, please try to focus on the question.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     It is precisely the question you asked me and I am saying
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, you had said no gas chambers, plural, at Auschwitz;
21what it means we can argue about later on. You knew when
22you made that observation, did you not, Mr Irving, that
23Mr Leuchter had purported to sample the ruins of the
24supposed gas chambers at Birkenhau, did you not?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Also, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. So your assertion was meant to mean there were no

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 1gas chambers at what people generally think of as
 2Auschwitz, that is to say Auschwitz 1 which is relatively
 3unimportant, and also at Birkenhau?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh, we are slopping over the whole thing into Birkenhau
 5too now, are we?
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What do you mean? Every time ----
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     I am clearly talking about Auschwitz here and you want to
 8drag Birkenhau under that umbrella as well.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You meant to refer to Birkenhau, you meant people to
10understand Birkenhau, did you not, Mr Irving, because you
11knew that Mr Leuchter's forensic tests related to
12Birkenhau as well as Auschwitz? You also know that
13everybody thinks when they think of Auschwitz of the
14massive extermination facility at Birkenhau?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, Mr Rampton, you say "everybody thinks" this, this is
16another of those wild assertions you make, rather like you
17previously said everybody says the Holocaust is the gas
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving ----
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But it is true, Mr Irving, is it not?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     It is not, my Lord. It is a very important point.
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Just speaking for myself, I had never heard of Birkenhau,
23but I had heard of Auschwitz.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, you have heard of Auschwitz, but, unfortunately,
25there are two camps. One is called Auschwitz, one is
26called Birkenhau and there is a third camp called Monovitz

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 1which is where the plant was, and experts, the historians,
 2are very careful to distinguish between them.
 3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes, but in terms of lay reaction and understanding,
 4almost everybody regards the whole complex as being
 5properly called "Auschwitz"?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I was not talking down to an audience here, my Lord.
 7I was speaking ----
 8 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     They were all experts?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     --- in terms of what I could justify. It would be talking
10down to them ----
11 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Anyway, you accept you said what is recorded as having
12been said here?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Quite definitely, yes.
14 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Do you also accept that you said that the existence of
15hundreds of thousands of eyewitnesses at Auschwitz, from
16Auschwitz, is evidence that Auschwitz did not have a
17dedicated programme to kill the Jews there?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, and I think that is a very fair comment to make. If
19we are told that the Nazi programme was one of
20extermination of every Jew that Hitler could get his hands
21on, the fact that very large numbers evidently survived
22this programme, they were in the jaws of death at
23Auschwitz, and at Birkenhau ----
24 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Hundreds of thousands?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Indeed. The figures are very large indeed if we look at
26the figures of those who survived the camps. Anne Frank

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 1was one example, my Lord. She was in Auschwitz. She
 2survived Auschwitz. She was evacuated to Begen-Belsen and
 3died of typhus there with her family.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, the public perception, or what you call
 5the legend, is that upwards of a million people were
 6deliberately murdered in gas chambers at what people call
 7Auschwitz. Do you know that the actual number of people
 8murdered by that method at Auschwitz 1 was between 10 and
10 A. [Mr Irving]     No, I do not know that.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Where did Mr Leuchter do his forensic tests precisely?
12Tell me that.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Can we look at the report?
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sorry, take the samples for the forensic tests.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Can we look at the report and see?
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, no. I want to know what you know about this.
17I really do not want you to deflect my questions by
18forever trying to refer to something else. Tell me, if
19will, whether you know as a fact or you knew as a fact,
20rather, at the time when you were speaking here that he
21had taken samples from the ruins of crematoria 2, 3, 4 and
225 at Birkenhau?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I am certainly not going to answer a detailed question
24like that from memory of a document I saw 12 years ago.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You knew he had taken samples from Birkenhau, did you not?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You knew that those samples had been subjected to forensic
 2chemical tests, did you not?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right. Please turn to page 11 of this transcript that we
 5are presently looking at. About halfway, just under
 6halfway, I would say two thirds of the way down, there is
 7a sentence which begins: "And it was the forensic tests".
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "And it was the forensic tests", those, Mr Irving, in your
10mind are the Liechter tests at Auschwitz One and at
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     As you have just told us: "On the gas chambers" plural "in
14Auschwitz which has totally exploded the legend", now what
15is "the legend"?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     The legend of Auschwitz as a factory of death,
17purpose-built with gas chambers that clanked into
18operation and killed upwards, as you say, of a million
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Of which the major component, as I have just suggested to
21you, by a very long way was Birkenhau?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you. Now can we please go to ----
24 A. [Mr Irving]     A major component of a legend, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Of course, Mr Irving. Page 22. I am going to read from
26the beginning actually of this is in connection with that

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