Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 7: Electronic Edition

Pages 171 - 175 of 199

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    Yes, I think it was because what I am told by
 1the point, which is why I was given the page reference
 2which I will now go back to. I am sorry about the
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     What is the section again, please, or tab?
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     25.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Page 493 in this tab. The page numbers are at the
 7top of the page, Mr Irving.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I have it.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In the right-hand column of page 493 somebody has
10written: "Irving concluded his address" -- this is about
11near the end of the middle paragraph -- "in Dresden with
12these words: 'Ladies and gentlemen, survivors and
13descendants of the holocaust of Dresden, the holocaust of
14Germans in Dresden really happened. That of the Jews in
15the gas chambers of Auschwitz is an invention. I am
16ashamed to be an Englishman'".
17     This article starts with the heading:
18"Battleship Auschwitz, David Irving, (Remarks presented
19to the Tenth International Revisionist Conference With an
20Introduction by Mark Weber". That recitation or
21repetition of what you had said at Dresden, therefore,
22comes, does it not, the mouth of Mr Weber?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Did he write this or is this ---
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is his introduction to your talk.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Very well.
26 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     It looks as if he did, but the question is was he

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 1accurate, was he right, had you said that?
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Did you say that?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think so. There is a transcript of my speech in
 4Dresden which your researchers could have obtained.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     OK. So Mr Weber got it wrong?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, on the evidence of this document, yes.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where is the transcript?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     They could have had the video tape transcribed.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     No, we have not got a tape of Dresden?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry, but a tape was made by Mr Geiger.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Maybe it was, but we have not got it.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry but ----
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you would be kind enough to retrieve it, we should very
14much like to have it transcribed.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     I will see if I can obtain a copy for you.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which is why our only source of what you said in Dresden
17is this document.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, it is not the kind of source that I personally would
19have relied upon.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Who is Mr Weber?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Weber is, I think he is the head of the Institute
22Historical Review.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you know him well?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is he a reliable gentleman?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     On the evidence of that, no.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is he a friend of yours?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Probably no longer.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Probably no longer. Seriously though, how close is your
 4association with Mr Weber?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I see him about once every two years.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you correspond regularly?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     He occasionally telephones me. I am glad he is paying the
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think if I were you, I would remember
10having said that if I said it.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Having said this? It is the precise wording that worries
12me, my Lord. The sense is correct.
13 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I see. Do not worry about the precise wording. Is the
14substance of it, did you make the points that Dresden was
15a Holocaust or Auschwitz is a non-Holocaust because it did
16not happen?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     I did not say that and I do not think even this says that,
18my Lord. What I have said is that Dresden was a real
19Holocaust. I have witnessed the pictures.
20 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Well, you then go on to say that of the Jews in the gas
21chambers of Auschwitz is an invention?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, it is no secret that I have said that no Jews were
23killed in the gas chambers at Auschwitz that are shown to
24the tourists, but that is the kind of limitation which
25Mr Rampton would probably find unhelpful.
26 MR RAMPTON:     No. That is one of your own, what I might say,

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 1self-set traps, Mr Irving. You have occasionally made
 2reference to the reconstructed gas chamber at Auschwitz 1,
 3the Stumlager. You have on numerous occasions said that
 4there were no gas chambers anywhere in the German system.
 5That must include Birkenhau; we have just looked at one
 6such remark.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I think you ought really to lead evidence to this
 8and not just summarize ----
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Am I right or -- it will ----
10 A. [Mr Irving]     --- to this effect.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- save so much time, Mr Irving, if you would accept that
12you have on numerous occasions said there were no gas
13chambers, plural, at Auschwitz?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I am sure that if you had evidence to that effect,
15then you would have started off the afternoon by saying
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. Well, I will try to find your Chappaquidick remark.
18Here we are, this is in November 1990, something called
19the Latvian Hall ----
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Reference?
21 MR RAMPTON:     That is the wrong one. I am so sorry. There is
22the one I read out. D2(i), my Lord, tab 9. This is 1991,
23so I have got ahead of the chronology, so it does not
24matter. I will start, if I may, with page 14?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     At tab 9, you say?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I think so.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     Page 14 of tab 9, Mr Irving?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which is a speech at, well, this is called Travel Lodge
 4Airport Inn, is that the same thing as Latvian Hall?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     2,000 miles away, otherwise it is the same, yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Oh, yes, this is Calgary, yes. Quite right. Now I am
 7going to start at ----
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     10 lines down.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, something like that. You were saying that
10Elie Wiesel is a liar. I am not the least bit interested
11in the answer to that question -- it is not a question --
12that observation, not the slightest bit, so please do not
13but in with something about Eli Wiesel. "And so are the
14other eyewitnesses in Auschwitz who claim they saw
15gassings going on because there were no gas chambers in
16Auschwitz, as the forensic tests show."
17     Mr Irving, is that right?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So when I said a moment ago that you had referred to gas
20chambers in the plural, as you had at the Leuchter press
21conference, I was right?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I could quite simply say this is a matter of English
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I could say there is no Chinaman sitting in your team, and
26I could equally well say there are no Chinamen sitting in

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