Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 7: Electronic Edition

Pages 166 - 170 of 199

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    Well, I think that, if I had written this sentence out
 1course I accept full responsibility.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What do you mean, garbled? It is a perfectly good English
 3sentence. Garble: It is as clear as a shaft of
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     In slave labour camps at Auschwitz or elsewhere.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, exactly. Or elsewhere. That is why you have used the
 7plural, slave labour camps.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     That is why I am talking about garbled. You cannot have
 9camps at Auschwitz, when Auschwitz was just one of two
10camps. It is garbled.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "All" should be "and" really.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but the sense of that is saying anybody who describes
13gas chambers in the slave labour camp at Auschwitz is to
14my mind making it up.
15 MR RAMPTON:     Or elsewhere, gas chambers elsewhere, is making it
16up too, are they not?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I might have to be pernickety and say I would like
18to see me actually saying that and hear what emphasis is
19attached to the words verbatim. This is the problem
20with transcripts, particularly when it is an incoherent
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Questioner: Not at slave labour camps either? Is that
23what you are saying?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     They have obviously got hold of the wrong end of stick
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You repeated, no gas chambers at slave labour camps

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 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, is that really fair? Over the
 3page, "Question: What do you think happened at Treblinka
 4and Sobibor? I do not know".
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Fair enough, my Lord, yes. Let us concentrate on
 6Auschwitz. That is danger of taking these plums ----
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Springing them on me like this, that is the danger.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What did you say?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     One springs just fragments on me and on the court like
10this, but his Lordship has quite wisely read ahead.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, you have for a very long time, I mean months,
12had a whole list of the speeches, the transcripts of
13speeches etc. on which we rely. You have had copies of
14them. And you made them in the first place. How can you
15say I am springing it on you? What shall I do? Give you
16a marked up copy Is that the best thing? I do not know
17what your Lordship thinks?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Sarcasm apart.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Shall we press on and find the other passages
20relied on? I just think we have to get to the passages
21that are relied on.
22 MR RAMPTON:     I am looking, my Lord, yes?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, these are not my transcripts. These are
24transcripts made by --
25 MR RAMPTON:     I am looking for a way round two problems, one
26that this is taking far too much time.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you went direct to the passages, as it
 2were, one after another, would that not help?
 3 MR RAMPTON:     I just did that.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I know.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     I do not want to be disobedient but this is
 6cross-examination and I cannot just stand in
 7cross-examination and read out passages without the
 8witness being given a chance to speak about them.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, he has to have a chance to comment but
10I just wonder whether we do not want to go from one to
11another with a minimum of intervening exchanges.
12 MR RAMPTON:     I will do what I can. I am not going to get the
13file out for this one because it will take too much time.
14Do you remember you made a speech at Dresden in February
16 A. [Mr Irving]     On the anniversary of the air raid, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So what?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     So what?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us concentrate on what was said.
20 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. Did you say something like this: The
21Holocaust of Germans in Dresden really happened. That of
22the Jews in the gas chambers at Auschwitz is an
23invention. I am ashamed to be an Englishman?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Could I just have that?
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     By all means, so far as I am concerned.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     There is what happened in Dresden and of that I am

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 1ashamed. I am sorry, my Lord, I have only got one copy
 2with me but it is a picture of the old market in Dresden,
 3thousands of bodies, victims of the air raid. Mr Rampton,
 4you mentioned it.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes but I am going to ask you to put it
 6down. We are going to spend no doubt a lot of time on
 7Dresden. The reasons, as you must appreciate, that
 8Mr Rampton put that alleged quote was nothing to do with
 9Dresden but what you said by way of comparison between
10Dresden and Auschwitz. Did you make that comparison?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Perfectly entitled to I think.
12 MR RAMPTON:     Did you say: I am not at present interested in
13Dresden. We can argue moral and historical questions
14about Dresden until the cows come home. At the moment
15Mr Irving we are dealing with your statements about
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I see the passages you are relying on?
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which is why I said so what?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I see the actual passage you are relying on?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That you are perfectly entitled to do.
21 MR RAMPTON:     You have to get out another file, D3(i)?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     I am afraid, when somebody says so what about Dresden,----
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Please. There is going to have to be a
25ruling before long. This is just absurd, this back and
26forth exchanging. Dresden is, I am sure, where is it in

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 1the index?
 2 MR RAMPTON:     D3(i) 25, page 493.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you know the internal pagination
 4Mr Rampton?
 5 MR RAMPTON:     No. I do not have a copy of it here. I have only
 6got an extract.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have you found the passage, Mr Irving?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry I have not.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think, if things are being put, they really
10have to be available in documentary form in case Mr Irving
11wants, as he has in this case, to see the context.
12 MR RAMPTON:     I agree with that. All that follows from this is
13that the reference I have been given is not the right
14one. It is entirely my fault. I am using the wrong
15idiot's guide to those transcripts. Can we forget Dresden
16for the moment, Mr Irving?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     I can never forget Dresden.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Not Dresden what happened, what you said about Auschwitz
19at Dresden, and then come back to it at some later stage
20if we have to? In D3(i), page 25, tab 25, may I please
21have a copy of that file? There should be, my Lord, a
22speech at an IHR conference on 14th October 1990.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Was that where we were just now, D3(i)?
24 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I think it was because what I am told by
25Miss Rogers is that in that speech one finds a reference
26back to what Mr Irving said at Dresden. That, I think, is

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