Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 7: Electronic Edition

Pages 161 - 165 of 199

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     That is all I want from Toronto/Ottawa, whichever
 2it be.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     There is, of course, a great deal more in that speech, my
 4Lord, which your Lordship may well read later on. The
 5reasons why one is sceptical about the report by the two
 6Slovac Jews, for example, and so on. I am not just
 7speaking off the top of my head. It is quite clear, I
 8think, by that time that I went to the Reisaltz Library
 9and had a look at the origins of the war refugee board and
10its entire file on that report and so on. It is a bit
11deceptive really just to take these single paragraphs out
12and hold them up.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We may have to have more discussion about the
14mechanics of dealing with the contextual points that you
15want to take.
16 MR RAMPTON:     I quite agree about that and, as I think I have
17already said at some time in this case if not just now,
18one of the problems with this sort of an exercise is that
19there is a danger that the most innocent selectivity can
20lead to distortion. I do not want that to happen. I do
21not want to skin this cat by a false case, if you see what
22I mean.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I follow that. This is not a criticism and
24please do not think it is, but we have taken, I do not
25know, three quarters of an hour on one relatively
26unimportant speech, and I do not think we can do that with

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 1all of them, can we? It really is not a criticism. This
 2is very difficult.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     I realize that. I would make the complaint, if
 4I had to, that I never get an answer to my question.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not being critical either way.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     I get a speech, and that is one of the reasons why
 7it takes such a long time.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I did suggest prime examples.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     That is quite a prime example, in our submission.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the answer is a selection of prime
11examples, followed by a marked up list of those that are
12relied on, and then and then we will work out how best to
13allow Mr Irving to take the context.
14 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I think I already read some of the most
15important parts of the press conference announcing the
16publication of the Leuchter report.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you give me the reference?
18 MR RAMPTON:     That is tab 5 of same file.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     If you had listened, with respect, to what I said about
20weighting the verbal utterances less heavily in the
21written books and so on, perhaps we would have avoided
22part of this misery.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is not fair. I am anxious not to have
24a sort of running commentary about the evidence, but the
25fact is, it seems to me on what I have heard so far, that
26you have been far more unrestrained in your assertions

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 1about Auschwitz when speaking at these various talks that
 2you gave.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Private gatherings, yes.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Gatherings. Well, I do not know that it
 5matters very much that they are private gatherings.
 6I think the Defendants are perfectly entitled to put that
 7to you.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I bear in mind what you said about these
10being, relatively speaking, unconsidered remarks, but the
11fact is you made them, so I am not going to stop
12Mr Rampton. Indeed, I think it is very important that we
13do see some of the things that have been said. We are on
14now to the press conference. That is Tab 5.
15 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving was about to say provided your Lordship
16does not attach too much weight. On the contrary, Mr
18 A. [Mr Irving]     I was not. I was about to say provided he bears in mind
19they are extempore, not scripted.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     On the contrary, Mr Irving, what you say in private to
21what I might call people of like mind is, in our
22submission, likely to be far more revealing of your true
23thoughts and motives than what you carefully craft for
24publication to the world at large. Do you follow me?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not follow where you get people of like mind from.
26What is the evidence for that?

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We are coming to that when we look at some of your
 2remarks, for example, to the national alliance.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     We have just been looking at this particular meeting.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us get on. I really think we are spending
 5an awful lot of time debating and fencing. The thing is,
 6I need to be shown what it is the Defendants rely on that
 7you said and to hear what you say about it now, Mr Irving.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     In answering your Lordship's request I am only
 9showing your Lordship a fragment of what we rely on.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I follow that. Prime example. So
11press conference.
12 MR RAMPTON:     Can we turn next, please, to page 35 of tab 5?
13Before I do that, Mr Julius has drawn to my attention
14something which your Lordship may actually think really
15rather important. Mr Irving challenges me to justify my
16observation, proposition, that these remarks, these, what
17shall I say, unclothed naked remarks, are to people of
18like mind. I do that by reference, if I may, before
19I leave tab 4, to page 16, and we see this again when we
20get, for example, to Calgary in 1991.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Whereabouts on the page?
22 MR RAMPTON:     In the middle of the page there is a sentence
23which starts: "The Auschwitz propaganda lie that was
24starting to run in 1944 is now out of control and it is
25going to take he men of the kind of stature of Ernst
26Zundel to kill that particular hare. Applause."

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 1     That is not the only such example.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Of what?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the question, because it was not
 4quite put as a question, is does that not show that you
 5were addressing a bunch of supporters of Zundel?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I think they were just people who appreciated the fact
 7that I had compassion for a man who had had his house
 8burned down and been subjected to repeated physical
 9violence and that he was still standing up to this kind of
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is the answer. On to the press
12conference, page 35.
13 MR RAMPTON:     Page 35. You are answering questions at the press
14conference. Just under halfway down the page somebody
15asks: "Everybody who has written about their camp
16experiences ----" You do not allow them to finish what
17they were going to say, Mr Irving. You butt in: "Anybody
18who has described gas chambers in slave labour camps at
19Auschwitz or anywhere else is to my mind making it up."
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Did you mean to say that?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I think that, if I had written this sentence out
23logically and not in this incoherent scramble, it would
24have been anybody who has described gas chambers in the
25slave labour camp at Auschwitz is to my mind making it up
26and it has probably come out a bit garbled, for which of

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