Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 7: Electronic Edition

Pages 16 - 20 of 199

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    I think I am familiar enough with the document. My
 1witnesses present. Is he allowed to be in court?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. It is only in criminal trials that
 3generally speaking you do not.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I think I am sufficiently familiar with the content
 5of this memorandum to answer questions.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     The only topics that were discussed at that
 7meeting on 6th March 1942 are the fate of the mischlinge,
 8that is to say the children of mixed marriages, and their
 9parents, the mischehen. There are two items, there are
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The first is the mischlinge on page 478 at the bottom?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And the second, on page 483 at the bottom, is the
15mischehen, that is to say mixed marriages?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There is not a word in that memorandum of that conference
18about the solution in general, apart from the heading
19which was a general heading always used for these
20documents. Am I right?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     You can say that about this document, yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then, if you will, turn to the next page in my little
24 A. [Mr Irving]     371?
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. I will use yours because you have translated it and
26I have not.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     This refers clearly to the conference concerning the Jews
 2and the mixed races.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I will just find your English first. I am going to read
 4it again.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not, because we have been through it once
 7 MR RAMPTON:     "My personal assistant has just briefed me on the
 8result of the session on March 6th, meeting might be a
 9better word, on the treatment of Jews and mixed races".
10That personal assistant was a man called Masfelder, was it
12 A. [Mr Irving]     That I do not know.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you look at the protocol, you can see Masfelder,
14sorry. The front sheet of the protocol, which is one of
15your own documents.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We can short circuit this. Mr Irving, this
17must be a reference to the conference of which we have
18just seen the record, is it not?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes indeed.
20 MR RAMPTON:     That conference had nothing whatever to do with
21what was to happen to the Jews overall. It was under that
22general heading, but it was specifically about mischlinge
23and mischehen, was it not?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     The minutes of the conference record only those parts
25dealing with the mischehen, the mixed marriages.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So, in effect, you have totally distorted what was

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 1discussed at that meeting. You have totally distorted
 2therefore the reason why Schlegelberger wrote to Lammers
 3and therefore, if the Schlegelberger has a place in this
 4chronology, you have distorted the effect of that, too,
 5have you not?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     This omission that you repeatedly make, and I beg to
 7differ on that because of course I am looking at the other
 8documents in the file and also looking at the
 9interrogations of the people who were at the meeting.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Let us look at the interrogations, shall we?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     If you remember, the business about Jews being supplied
12like cattle and so on. Quite clearly that is not in the
13minutes either. There is a lot of stuff that happened at
14that conference which is not recorded in the minutes.
15I think it is a mistake to adhere slavishly to the Nazi
16memoranda taken by these gentlemen, the minutes, which as
17you yourself have said frequently were written for
18camouflage purposes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is page 12 my Lord. Let us look at your extract from
20the postwar interrogation, shall we?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Whether or not Hans Ficher is talking about this meeting
23one does not know because one has not got the full text,
24but assume that he is, then what he said was: From the
25invitation, whatever that means, it was evident that
26evacuation or sterilization were on the agenda. What was

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 1discussed at that meeting was to how to deal with the
 2mischlinge and their parents the mischehen, and the
 3question arose should they be sterilized, should they be
 4evacuated, should they be allowed to stay where they are?
 5That is what was discussed, was it not?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Well we have of course two different versions of the same
 7meeting. We have several different versions of the same
 8meeting. We have the wartime minute taken by the one that
 9you referred to us from the Foreign Ministry files, which
10of course was before me, but we also have the other
11sources of that meeting.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, the document that you referred to and relied on
13in the account that you gave in your book Goebbels is this
15 A. [Mr Irving]     I specifically refer also to these interrogations of
16Ficher and Bohle and the rest in this paragraph.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do not move the goal posts please, Mr Irving. It is no
18good talking about some other memorandum. This is the
19memorandum which you footnoted in Goebbels, is it not?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     These gentlemen are clearly referring to this conference
21in their interrogations because they say it was at the
22headquarters of Heydrich, which pins it down as being this
23conference where the talk is about Jews being supplied
24like cattle.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are missing, I think, Mr Rampton's point
26on this, and I do not think we want to spend very long on

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 1it. It is that the evacuation and sterilisation that were
 2on the agenda may have been the evacuation or
 3sterilisation of mischlinge?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     It may be.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     You do not tell your readers that, do you? You do
 6not tell your readers that the discussion at this
 7conference was confined to the fate of the mischlinge and
 8the mischehen.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sure that Professor Evans would have spent eight
10pages on this one detail, but I am writing a book which
11has to be kept into the confines of one bound volume.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Unless you will answer my questions, we are going to have
13a bad day. Will you answer my question? You do not tell
14the readers that the discussion at this conference was
15confined to the fate of the mischlinge and mischehen, do
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Will you allow me to read again what I have written?
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, indeed.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not take long because really the answer to
20that question must be yes, that you are conveying to the
21reader that it is the whole question that is being
22postponed until the end of the war?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I think, My Lord, that I have stated on several occasions
24in the Goebbels' book, and your Lordship will remember the
25case of Gottschalt having caused Hitler particular agony,
26in my submission; that I have repeatedly referred to the

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