Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 7: Electronic Edition

Pages 151 - 155 of 199

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     I am totally ignorant, as you are now well aware,
 2Mr Rampton.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you did, you might not say something like that?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I am aware you are not supposed to lead evidence you
 5cannot justify.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am never supposed to say anything that I do not think
 7can be justified, that is right.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     In the summary of case, which is quite short
 9and that is to its credit, I think you will see the
10observation I just made is perhaps not an unfair one.
11 MR RAMPTON:     I did not sorry, I did not catch your Lordship's
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think I said that I did not read the
14summary of case as putting the Defendants' case as clearly
15and in quite the terms that you put just now.
16 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I do not think I can do better, and I do
17not think I did better just now, than what appears in box
1880 on page 27.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I was looking at the front. You are looking
20at the end.
21 MR RAMPTON:     I am looking at the summary we give of what we say
22is to be drawn from the content of Mr Irving's speeches.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you want to have a look at that,
24Mr Irving?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I think your Lordship sees my objection to this particular
26kind of thrust.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Shall I read it, Mr Irving?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you ought to, Mr Rampton, because
 4I think you have corrected me rightly, if I may say so.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     "P - that is P for plaintiff as he then was -
 6Mr Irving, is a right-wing pro Nazi ideologue, as is
 7demonstrated by the views he has expressed in his speeches
 8and publications. The Defendants will refer to the
 9anti-Semitic racist and misogynistic tone and contents of
10Mr Irving's speeches and publications, including those
11referred to above and in sections 1-5".
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Very well. If you are going to lead evidence about that
13topic, then you ought to do so earlier, sooner rather than
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is a fair point. The evidence must be
16led. But that is the case. It is spelled out clearly.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Sooner rather than later, rather than leaving this
18allegation in suspense.
19 MR RAMPTON:     That is what I am starting on now. I have just
20started on your speeches and publication.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Shall we press on?
22 MR RAMPTON:     Where am I now? I am still in 1988.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We are still in Ottawa.
24 MR RAMPTON:     Or was it Toronto? That is what I am going to try
25and prove, Mr Irving, over the next few hours or days or
26however long it may take.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Would your Lordship allow me then to lead evidence to
 2refute these allegation? S.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes of course.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not sure how we can do it.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You can do it yourself.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Or I can put it to one of the experts, Professor Levin or
 7Professor Eatwell. It is an easy slur to make, but it
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us concentrate on the evidence that is
10going to be put now.
11 MR RAMPTON:     The only thing which is going to stick in this
12case, Mr Irving, is his Lordship's judgment. At least,
13I hope so.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Shall we proceed with the questioning, Mr Rampton.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, Mr Irving. We will continue, shall we? I think
16I was at the words: "But Mr Zundel has used the scientific
17methods and, taking this as a starting point, I have now
18begun over the last few months going round the archives,
19with a completely open mind, looking for the evidence
20myself because, if Auschwitz, just to take that
21one cardinal tent pole of the case, itself was not an
22extermination factory, then what is the evidence that it
23was?" I do not understand that sentence but I understand
24the sense of it. "This is one thing I have to look at.
25How did all the evidence come into existence? It is an
26interesting case because we all now accept that the media

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 1knows, everybody knows, it has become a matter of common
 2experience, judicial notice has been taken of the fact
 3that Auschwitz was an extermination camp. So what is the
 4evidence that it was? If you then start going all your way
 5back down the pipeline to find out where this evidence
 6comes from, you come up with one or two or three documents
 7and eyewitness accounts and that is all."
 8     Now, that was your account of the state of the
 9evidence regarding the proposition that Auschwitz was a
10totas fabrik in August 1988, some five months after the
11end of the Zundel trial.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You had not even bothered going to look at the archive in
14Auschwitz, had you?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     I think I did not say here that I went to the Auschwitz
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You said you had been round the archives with a completely
18open mind looking for the evidence.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You tell your audience that all you come up with is one or
21two or three documents and eyewitnesses accounts and that
22is all.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Let me explain to you the situation at the time as
24I understand it, archively speaking. The Soviet archives
25were not opened until 1990, I believe I am correct in

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am listening. Please continue.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not like talking to the back of counsel.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It happens all time in court. It has to. It
 4is not rudeness or anything else. It is just the way of
 5the world.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I promise I will not turn my back on people when they are
 7speaking to me.
 8 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Just carry on with your answer, please.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Soviet archives had not been opened at that time. Poland
10was still behind the iron curtain. The wall had not come
11done. Am I making my point?
12 MR RAMPTON:     No, not in the least bit.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Which of those sentences did you not understand?
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I understood the first sentence, which was completely
15irrelevant because we are in 1988. I am not interested in
16Moscow. I asked you about the archive at Auschwitz so
17leave Moscow out of it.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Our present state of information about Auschwitz, the
19superior information we now have about Auschwitz, comes
20primarily from the fact that the Russians, when they
21arrived in Auschwitz, captured the records of the camp
22intact, particularly the construction records of the camp,
23which therefore went to the Moscow archives. Poland,
24where Auschwitz is situated, was behind the iron curtain.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am getting some information. Continue. Yes?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     

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