Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 7: Electronic Edition

Pages 146 - 150 of 199

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    I will start at 549. I am not at all sure what you are
 1have been going around for last the 20 years saying this.
 2I do not like them because they have not been using
 3scientific methods". You know their names because they
 4frequently appear in the newspapers under attack and they
 5have done our cause quite a lot harm I think."
 6     Can I pause there? What do you mean by the
 7words "our cause"? Whose cause?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Do you mind if I read these few lines again to try to work
 9out what I am talking about?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Please do.
11 MR RAMPTON:     And back if you want as well for the content.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     It is a problem. You leap forward ten pages and then say
13who are we talking about? I do not know. I do not know
14who we are talking about there.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     These people, whoever they are, have been blundering about
16in the room, saying things or doing things you do not
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You say:"These people have done our cause quite a lot of
20harm". Whose cause, Mr Irving?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know. I do not know who I am talking about.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You are talking about the cause of like minded
23anti-Semitic Holocaust deniers, are you not?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think there is the slight hint of that in those
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Who else's cause would you be talking of?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Obviously I am going to have to read the previous page to
 2see who we are talking about then. (Pause for reading)
 3One interpretation is that it is the defence team of
 4Mr Zundel, who was at that time under appeal, or I think
 5the case was ongoing against him. Or historians like
 6myself. To try and put in words like anti-Semitic and
 7things like that I think is not very helpful.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You may as well have them now, Mr Irving. You will get at
 9the end anyway.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Are you going to imply that I am anti-Semitic, are you, or
11my friends are anti-Semitic?
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I have said it in opening and I will say it again now if
13it pleases you so that you will have it in mind ----
14 A. [Mr Irving]     So the newspapers will have it tomorrow, yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You may or may not do, but you will certainly get it at
16the end of case when we have looked at all the evidence.
17Our case is that you consort with people who are deeply
18anti-Semitic, and you do it quite frequently, not all the
20 A. [Mr Irving]     So did Winston Churchill. Most of his Cabinet ministers
21were anti-Semitic but does it make Winston Churchill
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Two blacks do not make a white?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not calling Mr Winston Churchill black. I am just
25giving that as an example that that is not so far very
26good evidence.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton was putting his case to you.
 2Perhaps wait until you have the whole of it and then
 4 MR RAMPTON:     What is more, Mr Irving ----
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     This is a very serious charge to make, of course.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Of course it is. It is a charge I made in opening
 7the case and I intend to make it good.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     You did not make the anti-Semitic charge in opening the
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I made the charge that you made statements, and I now add
11the word "deliberately", which are deliberately designed
12to feed the virulent anti-Semitism which alas today in the
13world is still alive and kicking, and you know perfectly
14well that that is what you are doing. I further say, and
15we will look at some of this down the line, that some of
16the observations you make on these occasions are
17themselves greatly anti-Semitic.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, no doubt we can take each of these seriatim when we
19come to them.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We will. You will remember the one that I read out in
21opening, will you not?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, your instructing solicitors may not have told
23you but we had correspondence on this matter, and
24I invited the solicitors to say to me whether they were
25going to level at me the allegation that I am anti-Semitic
26so that I would have the opportunity to lead evidence on

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 1that. They refused to state at that time that that was
 2their intention. You are now coming totally against the
 3principles of the new rules with this fresh allegation
 4that I am in some way anti-Semitic.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I did not say that.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I think it is highly improper.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you will read the transcript of what I said I chose my
 8words very carefully.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sure you did, Mr Rampton, so that they get in the
10newspapers in that form tomorrow. I am sure you know
11exactly how carefully to choose your words to make a slur
12like that.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do. That is why they pay me, Mr Irving. Precision is
14everything, I find. You make observations -- I am trying
15to repeat myself without looking at the screen -- which
16can fairly characterised -- I am not sure that I have it
17verbatim -- as grossly anti-Semitic on these occasions.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not going to dignify that with an answer, Mr Rampton,
19unless his Lord invites me to.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, you do not have to. I will invite
21Mr Rampton in due course to make that good by reference to
22what you said. That is elementary fairness to you.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     To lead appropriate evidence.
24 MR RAMPTON:     Thank you. I could not possibly say it if I did
25not have that intention, Mr Irving.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     It would have been nice if your solicitors had informed me

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 1in good time that this was going to be your intention,
 2which would have given us time over the months to build up
 3the appropriate dossier of counter material.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is a fair point because I am not sure
 5this is spelled out quite as clearly as you did just now,
 6Mr Rampton.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Very clearly indeed in the correspondence between the
 9 MR RAMPTON:     It is not spelled out clearly in the original
10defence, my Lord, I accept.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have just been looking at the way it is put
13 MR RAMPTON:     I think it is spelled out very clearly in the
14statement of case. I think it is. I think I read it the
15other day.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Tab 6, not so clearly as all that.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     But this is clearly playing to the gallery in the form of
18the press gallery.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, really, I must be the judge of
20that, must I not?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     It goes to the conduct by the Defendants of the case when
22the time comes, my Lord.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of course it does.
24 MR RAMPTON:     Do you know anything at all about life at the Bar,
25Mr Irving? Do you know anything about the rules under
26which we operate?

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