Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 7: Electronic Edition

Pages 136 - 140 of 199

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    If it is relevant, my Lord, yes, then we ought to look at
 1statement of denial there of an element of the Holocaust.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I had better just highlight it whilst I
 3am thinking of it. Sorry.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     One could have operated with that statement in lieu of
 5looking at all the passages.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I think, well, I will not say that. I
 7think it is up to Mr Rampton to decide what course he
 9 MR RAMPTON:     No. I am open to guidance, if not actually of
10being told what to do. I want to save time. At the same
11time I must make absolutely sure (a) that your Lordship
12has the relevant parts of the evidence and, quite frankly,
13I cannot ask you to sit down and read all these
14transcripts; (b) that Mr Irving is given a fair chance of
15dealing with what I shall say about his conduct in this
16regard at the end of the case.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     My feeling is it probably can be dealt with
18without actually ploughing through the individual
19transcripts. You might want to take some what you would
20describe as prime examples. Beyond that, I think it may
21be down to me to read them.
22 MR RAMPTON:     I will do that. I will need help from my learned
23junior who is the master of these, if I can call her that,
24mistress, if you like, of these transcripts.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I think they are very similar. It is always the same
26gramophone record. It may just be embedded in a different

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 1amount of verbiage.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Could your Lordship and Mr Irving be provided,
 3please, with file D2(i)?
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I hope I have it. What I am going to try to
 5do, my Lord, is to take what your Lordship calls a prime
 6example from each year to start with and see how we get
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That would be very helpful.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Could your Lordship and Mr Irving please turn to
10tab 4 in this file? This, Mr Irving, is a speech made in
11Toronto, I know not on what date, but in August, 13th
12August 1988. My Lord, this file has an index, not an
13index, a contents page, two contents pages, at the
14beginning from which one can see that tab 4 is an audio
15cassette marked "Toronto". But I do not know, therefore,
16what the audience was. I will ask Mr Irving. (To the
17witness): Could you tell us, please, Mr Irving, who the
18audience was on this date?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Human beings.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is not a conspicuously helpful answer?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, my Lord, I have no idea who was in the audience,
22without wishing to be disrespectful.
23 MR RAMPTON:     Was it an event arranged by somebody else?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Without looking at my diary, I cannot tell you who was
25there. Sometimes I spoke 150 times a year.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     40 to 50 -- who lives at Kentville?

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr & Mrs Weisner?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr & Mrs Weisner, I think it was a private soiree in their
 3home probably.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     255, I am reading from your diary for that day:
 5"3.00 p.m. function, audience of 40 to 50, in stiflingly
 6humid basement room, no air conditioning"?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     I remember and there was a colossal thunder storm that
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do sympathise. Also there are some remarks about the
10gate of $350 and Ernst, that is Ernst Zundel's, book sales
11$600. Our book sales $180." Who is the "we" in "our"?
12Whose book is that?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     I think Mr Zundel bought a number of books off me as
14I sold books all around the world, and he runs a
15bookshop. So I divided it up between this bulk sale of
16books to him and bulk and books that we sold. That was
17myself and my assistant.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So in this stiflingly hot basement in August in Toronto,
19if you turn to page 6 ----
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I think it was probably Ottawa rather than Toronto.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I cannot help about that. It has "Toronto" on the front.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Canada anyway?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     It was Ottawa.
24 MR RAMPTON:     It is Miss Rogers fault. I will scratch out
25"Toronto" and put -- sorry about that -- "Ottawa"?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Manipulate the place back to Ottawa, shall we?

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Just negligence, I think.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     We will sort this out later. It is just a waste
 3of time. It does not matter. It is the words that
 4matter. Whether it is an audience of 130 or an audience
 5of 50, it is still quite a lot of people?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, you asked me who the audience was and that is why
 7you, obviously, attached importance to it.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, I wondered what the occasion was. Some friends of
 9Mr Zundel's who paid at the door to come in, is that
11 A. [Mr Irving]     No, it was the friends of the Weisners.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The Weisners?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     The Weisners who live in Ottawa, and they invited me to go
14and address their family and friends, basically.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Were these family and friends mostly German
17 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not anti-German. I dislike this kind of ethnic
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, no, no, Mr Irving, nor am I.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Anti-Germanism is as bad as anti-Semitism, I think.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is a matter of opinion. Can you please turn to page
226 of this document?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Page 6?
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There is a parenthetical note, (286). That must be some

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 1kind of mark on the recording. You say this: "But just
 2imagine the omelette on their faces", they are the
 3orthodox historians, are they, or who?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, probably like saying I like seeing egg on the
 5historians' faces. The court may have gained that
 6impression also over the last few days.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I would have to trace it a way back and I really ----
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not let us worry.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     "Imagine the omelette on their faces if we managed
10to unmask the other six milliion lie". What do you mean
11by the words "the other 6 million lie"? "This is the
12prospect that is now opening up in front of me"?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh, because the previous day I had been talking about
14Derstern spending $6 million on buying the Adolf Hitler
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So this is what you call the Holocaust lie, is it not?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, it is obviously a play on words between $6 million
18and 6 million people, yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But you frequently referred to what you might call the
20received view about Auschwitz and the Holocaust generally
21as a lie, have you not?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think you will find many occasions, Mr Rampton.
23This is not being spoken from a script. This is an
24extemporary talk to a group of fans and friends in the
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     

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