Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 7: Electronic Edition

Pages 131 - 135 of 199

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    The answer is no. Did you take any steps before
 1or June -- June, I think it was -- 1989, did you have any
 2steps to have its logic and its science and Mr Leuchter's
 3methodology verified?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     The whole point of publishing a document like this is in
 5order to test the hypothesis. You put it up on the wall
 6and you invite people then to contact you and say, "This
 7is wrong, that is wrong, this is flawed", and this is
 8precisely what happened.
 9     In fact, Mr Rampton, you will notice in my
10introduction to the report, as you are aware, I described
11this report as being flawed. One would have wished to see
12it written differently and the investigations carried out
13differently. So it was published with reservations by
14myself as a publisher.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, the answer to my question is no, is it not?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     The answer is just as I gave it.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The answer is you did not take any steps to have the
18contents of the Leuchter report, and Mr Fred Leuchter's
19shattering conclusions, as you describe them, you did not
20do anything at all to have them verified by an independent
21expert or experts, did you?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     The very act of publishing the report was the attempt to
23get it verified.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The answer is no.
25 MR RAMPTON:     The answer is no?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     I beg your pardon?

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The answer is no. It is helpful to -- you
 2add things, but, you know, answer the question and then
 3elaborate if you feel you must.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Is a publisher bound to take steps to verify in detail the
 5scientific basis of every book that he publishes?
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, if he adds the weight of his own
 7authority as a noted historian on this period in human
 8history, then the answer must be yes, must it not?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, then I would draw your attention to the
10language in which my introduction was couched which was
11clearly with reservations.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Some small reservations?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     And it says the ball is now in their court which makes
14quite clearly the trial nature of the publication of this
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Did you have a press conference on 23rd June 1989 to
17announce the publication of the Leuchter report?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Did you say at that press conference: "The buildings which
20we now identify as gas chambers in Auschwitz were not"?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Had you had any research done beyond what appeared in the
23Leuchter report to verify that statement before you made
25 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you. "I cannot accept", you said, "that they had

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 1gas chambers there. There was no equipment there for
 2killing people en masse." You went on: "And hydrogen
 3cyanide is wonderful for killing lice, but not so good for
 4killing people unless in colossal concentrations".
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Did you take any steps to verify the scientific and
 7biological correctness of that statement ----
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- before you made it. Do you know now that it is
10complete rubbish?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     No, I would not agree.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you read the appendices to Mr Leuchter's report?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Which appendices?
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The ones appended to his report?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     There are several appendices.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. They are all here. I have got them.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but I am saying that I have read some of them and
18I have not read the others.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Shall we just have a quick look at them? Are they
20attached to your version?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, they are not in the slim line version, as you might
22call it.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Unless somebody can find me the reference in court, this
24also will have to go back to Monday.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, it must be somewhere, surely.
26 MR RAMPTON:     Well, I know.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is probably the most important single
 2document in the case.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry, I did not do the files.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I am not casting blame anywhere.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     No, I am not trying to cast blame. I am trying to
 6find the report.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor van Pelt might know where it is.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     He has his own copy, I expect, and he did not do
 9the filing either. I will send out some messages, to put
10it politely, at the end of today and make sure that
11everybody has the same copy as I have.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You did say you were going to deal with the
14 MR RAMPTON:     I am.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So that is something one can deal with
16without the Leuchter report.
17 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, there is a problem about this, not from
18my point of view, but from your Lordship's point of view.
19Miss Rogers and I have not been arguing about it, but we
20are thinking the best way of dealing with it. There are
21so many of them and the transcripts are so long that my
22voice could conk out and your Lordship would die of
23boredom if I went through them all.
24     The fact that I select some passages in some of
25them over a period of time should not allow anybody to
26think that this is not a topic which Mr Irving has

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 1returned to again and again and again over a period of
 2years from 1988 onwards.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     We will not have difficulty with the denials because I
 4denied at that time and I deny now that the buildings
 5shown to the tourists at Auschwitz are gas chambers or
 6ever were.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is easy. In case, I can give your Lordship the
 8references simply, can I not?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Can we just spend a few minutes on this
10because it is really a sort of methodological kind of
11problem, is it not?
12 MR RAMPTON:     It is.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The difficulty that I see is I have all those
14articles and I do not want to plough through them
15particularly, and I would have no problem, unless
16Mr Irving tells me he does not like this idea, in your
17sidelining, or somebody on your team, the passages on
18which you rely. The problem arises because, as I
19understand Mr Irving, he says that in a number of the
20statements you rely on he has been taken out of context.
21 MR RAMPTON:     Then I will have to do it.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, heaven forbid, but that is right,
23Mr Irving, is it not?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     If it is relevant, my Lord, yes, then we ought to look at
25it, but I thought that the statement that I just made
26would have helped your Lordship, if I make a crystal clear

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