Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 7: Electronic Edition

Pages 126 - 130 of 199

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    Let me give you an analogy, Mr Rampton -- it just occurs
 1to me. Suppose just before you are going to go into the
 2witness box, the barrister for the Defence comes up to you
 3and says, well, the man is alleged to have been shot by a
 4nine-milimetre automatic, but, unfortunately, we now find
 5out that the bullet that was found in the body was a 38;
 6would not this be sufficient grounds, even for a person
 7who is not versed in ballistics, to say, "Well, I am
 8beginning to change my mind"?
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is a rotten analogy which I do not want to pick up,
10Mr Irving, because it will just waste time.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     You have to remember, I have just been going into the
12witness stand in Toronto to pontificate, if you can put it
13like that, about Hitler and the decision-making at the top
14level, and I have been shown by the barrister laboratory
15reports produced by a qualified laboratory in New England,
16suggesting very strongly that there is no significant
17residue of cyanide compounds to be found in the fabric of
18the so-called gas chambers at Auschwitz where millions of
19people have been gassed, or hundreds of thousands of
20people have been gassed.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What was the relevance, as you saw it, of
22that to your own evidence? Why did they come to your
23hotel and talk about the Leuchter report?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I think probably because they were trying to get the
25Leuchter report before the judge.
26 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Not through you?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     They were having difficulties, my Lord, because the judge
 2had taken judicial notice of the Holocaust in Canada and
 3they were in legal difficulties. My Lord, I am not a
 4legal expert and I can only begin ----
 5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     No, the answer is you do not really know?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     The answer is I do not know, but if you ask me the reason
 7why I suspect they were trying to get me to make reference
 8to it and to try to bring it before the jury, before his
 9Lordship, in that case Lock J could intervene to say this
10matter has been ruled inadmissible.
11 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I was puzzled.
12 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, you just given what you know to be an
13untrue answer to his Lordship. The Leuchter report was
14ruled out of court because the judge held that Mr Leuchter
15had no relevant expertise that would justify his report
16going before the jury.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     I would be grateful if you would lead that evidence
18actually on a documentary basis.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I will. I do not have the file here. You will see it on
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but you remember I questioned that before when you
22said that.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is in the transcript. I cannot give you the page
25 A. [Mr Irving]     That was not my understanding of the reason why the
26document was ruled inadmissible.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We will wait until we have the transcript,
 2shall we?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     And certainly, if that is the reason why, then it was not
 4to my knowledge.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     It was quite clear from the answer -- I am not
 6suggesting you gave an answer to the judge in Canada which
 7was untrue at all?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     You are saying I gave an answer just now which was untrue
 9and I am on oath.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, I believe that it is and we will come back to it.
11Mr Irving, you said to the Judge in Canada, truthfully
12I believe, that you had never been to Auschwitz to look at
13the archive?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     It was true then and it is true today.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is true today?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     And you know the reason why.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I have no idea what the reason why is?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Does it matter?
19 MR RAMPTON:     It does not matter.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Because I am banned from visiting Auschwitz or the
21archives. I am the only historian in the world who is not
22allowed to set foot in the Auschwitz archives.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     When did that happen?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Last summer -- summer 1996.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But between this trial in 1988, yes, and whenever the ban
26was imposed recently, you have had every opportunity to

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 1visit the archives in Auschwitz, have you not?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think so. I think the ban would have been
 3imposed even then. I think it is like the big casinos in
 4Los Vegas. They do not want the big winners to come.
 5They said, "For God's sake, don't let David Irving come
 6and look in our archives".
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What is the reason for the ban in the Czech Republic --
 8no, Poland, sorry, as it is still is, Mr Irving?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     They did not state. In their letter to me, they said:
10"Mr Irving, you will not be permitted to set foot on the
11territory of the Auschwitz camp nor will you be allowed to
12enter the archives".
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you not think it virtually certain that the reason for
14that is that ever since the Zundel trial in 1988, you have
15been up on your hind legs denying that Auschwitz served
16the purpose which everybody knows that it did?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, in that case they have taken precisely the wrong
18attitude with me. They should have said, "Mr Irving, do
19come round. We have some very interesting documents here
20which will change your mind". They know perfectly well
21that had they produced one document to me of quality,
22I would immediately have changed my mind because I have no
23axe whatever to grind on this. I have repeatedly said
24that. But they took the opposite attitude. They said,
25"Don't let him anywhere near our archives. That is David
26Irving who exposed the Hitler diaries and all these other

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 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Does it matter what these various governments
 3have said and done?
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, it does.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why?
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Because the reason for the ban has likely been
 7Mr Irving's denial of the Holocaust without any evidence.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, sure, and I want to see the denials, but
 9I do not think I am really interested in knowing what the
10Polish government did about it.
11 MR RAMPTON:     It is only a passing suggestion that he has
12brought the ban on himself.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So what if he has?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     In which case this is one more example of the damage
15done to me by the book that the Defendants have published.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Did you make any attempt to go to Auschwitz,
17following your first receipt of the -- I cannot remember
18the man's name -- Leuchter report and your publication of
19it in this country in 1989?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Why should I have done so, if I may ask the question?
21What possible reason would I have had to go to Auschwitz?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But the answer is no?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     The answer is no because I am not a holocaust historian,
24my Lord.
25 MR RAMPTON:     The answer is no. Did you take any steps before
26you published it with a press conference in London in May

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