Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 7: Electronic Edition

Pages 111 - 115 of 199

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    Either on the evening I arrived, or the following morning
 1the affidavit purported to conclude.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     For how many days did you give evidence?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     It was over a weekend. I think I was in the box for three
 4or four days, possibly three days.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Over the weekend while were you were in the box -- I am
 6not suggesting there is anything in the least bit improper
 7in this because there plainly is not -- did you get a
 8chance to read the inch thick affidavit?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     I would have had a chance to, but I do not think I did. I
10think we went on an outing to the Niagara Falls, which is
11close to Toronto.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If I may say so, a good deal more edifying than the
13Leuchter report.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I ask you this? You were asked to give
15evidence as an expert on the Holocaust?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     On Adolf Hitler basically, and his involvement, the kind
17of thing we have been discussing until now, my Lord.
18 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That is not what I am getting at. You were giving
19evidence about extermination, of whether there were really
206 million Jewish deaths?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Not on the extermination, my Lord. They were purely
22interested in hearing what Adolf Hitler's part in this was
23or was not. I could not give expert evidence on the
24Holocaust and I would not have been accepted by the court
25as an expert.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I understand.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     I was very closely questioned before the trial began,
 2before my hearing began, as to my qualifications by the
 4 MR RAMPTON:     May Mr Irving please be given a file? Your
 5Lordship may not have this in court. I have the reference
 6here, D 9 (i). (Document not provided) If your Lordship
 7has not got it, which I do not expect you have, I will try
 8and find one.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I should have thought to bring it.
10 MR RAMPTON:     It is a transcript of Mr Irving's evidence in the
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I have it.
13 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, the page numbers are the original. There
14are two page numbers. I intend to use the original
15transcript page numbers, which are at the top left hand
16corner of the page. The page I am looking for is 9473.
17I think it must be that the Canadians numbered the whole
18trial with consecutive page numbers.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Is this examination in chief?
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, this is cross-examination by Mr Pearson?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you got it, Mr Irving?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I have it in front of me.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     9473. It has the helpful heading "Irving CREX Pearson".
25At the bottom of the page it says 327. It is a recent
26file number. Mr Pearson has put to you something -- I do

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 1not think it probably matters what much except that it
 2will have to do with the Holocaust -- about which you say
 3this. I am reading from the top of the page: "At the time
 4that I wrote that in the 1960s, 1974 or thereabouts, when
 5I wrote that introduction, I believed, I believed
 6everything I had heard about the extermination camps".
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     I think there should be a comma after the first "believed"
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
10 MR RAMPTON:     There is in my copy. There should not be?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     I think there should be a comma after the first
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It does not matter.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     It sounds a little bit obsessive, otherwise.
15 MR RAMPTON:     (Document not provided) "I believed everything
16I heard about the extermination camps. I was not
17investigating the extermination camps. I was
18investigating Hitler. Question: But you told us that you
19did ten years of extensive research on the national
20socialist regime? Answer: Yes. Question: And you had no
21problem making that statement, did you? Answer: Because I
22believed. Question: Right. Answer: I believed what I had
23read up to that point. I had not gone to the sites at
24Auschwitz and Treblinka, and Mydonek and brought back
25samples and carried out an analysis. I had not done any
26research into what is called the Holocaust. I researched

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 1Hitler and his staff. Question: You have done that, have
 2you, since? Answer: I have not. Question: You have not
 3done those things? Answer: I have carried out no
 4investigation in equivalent depth of the Holocaust.
 5Question: But your mind changed? Answer: My mind has now
 6changed. Question: You no longer believe it? Answer:
 7I have now begun to challenge that. I understand it is
 8now a subject open to debate. Question: But your belief
 9changed, even though you did not do any research? Is that
10what you are saying? Answer: My belief has now changed
11because I understand that the whole of the Holocaust
12mythology is after all open to doubt, and certainly in the
13course of what I have read in the last few days, in fact
14in this trial, I am now becoming more and more hardened in
15this view".
16     Mr Irving, what had you read that led to such a
17volte-face during those last few days?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     A few figures in a column of chemical tests. Percentages.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You had read a few figures in a column in Mr Leuchter
20report. Is that right?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     In the laboratory analysis appended to the Leuchter
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That evidence, I think I am right in saying, was given on
2425th April, 1988?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I think your diary entry for the 22nd, which is a Friday,

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 1tells us this. I will just read it: "Breakfast in the
 2Carven Inn. Hans Zundel and defence lawyer Douglas
 3Christie came around 8.30 am for a briefing session.
 4I told them I had read Leuchter's report on Auschwitz and
 5am much impressed". What is the truth of this?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I beg your pardon?
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The two things are not the same.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, obviously, if the report is one inch thick and has
11only been given to me either that morning or the previous
12evening, I have not read the entire report one inch
13thick. But I have read the relevant part they are
14interested in.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The last entry for the previous day, which is 21 April,
16which is a Thursday, you said this in your diary. I do
17not know whether you are intending to publish your diaries
18but you say this: "Zundel says I give evidence tomorrow.
19Read their lab reports on Auschwitz until late. Bed
20around 11" p.m.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I do emphasis that I have not read those diaries since
22I wrote them 12 years ago, but that precisely confirms my
23memory. I read the lab reports, the percentages, until 12
24 A. [Mr Irving]     m. There are quite a few pages of them.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     When you tell them next morning at breakfast time that you
26had read Leichter's report on Auschwitz "and am much

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