Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 7: Electronic Edition

Pages 106 - 110 of 199

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    That is the right formulation, yes. I will,
 1but I think, really, we are going to have to deal with
 2this on a bit of a piecemeal basis. Would it help if
 3I gave an indication maybe at 2 o'clock what I think
 4the --
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Well, it would --
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Guidelines should be.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry, I did not mean to interrupt. It would
 8very much help, because it will put Mr Irving in the
 9position of deciding whether or not, in order to save time
10and everybody's labours, whether or not there are not some
11concessions that he ought to make.
12 MR IRVING:     That rather implies that I can answer under oath in
13any way that is not true.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, it does not imply anything of the sort.
15 MR RAMPTON:     No, I meant before he gives evidence.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I will try and say something which helps at 5
17past 2.
18 (Luncheon Adjournment)
19(Please see separate transcript for Ruling)
20 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I think that admirably clarifies the
21situation. I hope that you will agree that it was a
22useful exercise to conduct at this point in the trial.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I most certainly do because I think it may
24keep the case in slightly more reasonable bounds than
25might otherwise have been so.
26 MR IRVING:     I think that this was the right time to conduct

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 1that exercise, being several days into the trial. Thank
 2you very much, my Lord.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you both happy to proceed with
 4cross-examination on the topic of Auschwitz?
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Indeed I am. I have not of course got a
 6transcript yet. We have been trying to follow it on the
 7screen. May I see if I have understood the last part of
 8your Lordship's ruling correctly?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
10 MR RAMPTON:     If and in so far as Mr Irving should contend that
11he was entitled to rely on the Leuchter report in the way
12that he did, then I have a gate open, as it were -- not
13that I want it to, I would much rather it did not -- for
14me to go through the detail, in effect. Is that right or
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sorry, I am not quite sure. The detail of
18 MR RAMPTON:     If he said should say, I maintain that I was
19entitled to rely on the Leuchter report, then the detailed
20criticisms of the Leuchter report may become relevant.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I totally agree. What I was intending to say
22right at the end of my little ruling was that that is
23really open season, the whole of the Leuchter report.
24 MR RAMPTON:     That, apart from some parts of the eyewitness
25testimony, this was my fear, and some parts of Professor
26van Pelt's report about other evidence, it is, I am

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 1afraid, two thirds of the evidence on Auschwitz.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I am a bit doubtful of that, but
 3I appreciate there is an enormous amount left.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Maybe that is a wrong estimate, but it is a large
 5lump of the actual factual evidence about Auschwitz, what
 6can be known of what happened there by reference to what
 7Mr Leuchter said.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but there is no reason why you should
 9not cross-examine on the totality of that.
10 MR RAMPTON:     I just wanted to be clear. I do not want to put
11my foot in the wrong ----
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is without prejudice to Mr Irving's
13entitlement at any point to say that that question is not
14relevant to the issues for whatever reason he may suggest.
15 MR RAMPTON:     Your Lordship may say it without being prompted by
16Mr Irving, I dare say.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I might even do so, yes. Mr Irving, would you
18like to come back?
19 < Mr Irving, recalled.
20< Cross-Examined by Mr Rampton QC, continued.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, may I say this before you start?
22It would help me if one could, perhaps by some initial
23questions to Mr Irving, put into the context of your case.
24 MR RAMPTON:     A little bit of history?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     A little bit of history and where one pigeon
26holes it, if you like.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     Not wartime history. This is Mr Irving's history.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Eighties/nineties.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     That is right. Mr Irving, when did you first meet
 4Mr Fred Leuchter?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     On a day in April 1988 in Toronto, Canada.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You went, and I do not think there is controversy about
 7this, to Toronto, Canada, in order to give expert evidence
 8at the trial of Mr Hans Zundel. Is that right?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     I was residing in Florida at that time, writing. They
10invited me to give evidence as an expert witness on the
11general history of the Third Reich, I do emphasise not on
12Auschwitz, and on Adolf Hitler's involvement in what is
13referred to as the Holocaust. I flew to Toronto on the
14day before I was due to give evidence.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So the answer to my question is yes, I think, is it not?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What was it, in case I have got it wrong, that Mr Zundel
18was charged with?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     There was a mediaeval law in Canada which made the
20spreading of false information a criminal offence. That
21law has now been struck down by the Canadian Supreme
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In respect of what statements under that mediaeval law, as
24you call it, in what form was Mr Zundel charged?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     If I remember correctly, he was charged with having
26published or disseminated a brochure called, "Did 6

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 1million really die"?
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. What was the topic of that pamphlet or whatever it
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     As its title implies, it was questioning the fundamental
 5aspects of the Holocaust.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     I had not, up to the time I arrived in Toronto, read that
 8brochure, but I was given a copy to read shortly before
 9the trial began, because I was going to be asked questions
10about it.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You did not give evidence, I expect, immediately upon
12arrival? You did not get off the plane and into the
13witness box?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I gave evidence on the following day if I remember
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Does this mean that you had the opportunity to read
17Mr Leuchter report before you gave evidence?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Either on the evening I arrived, or the following morning
19before I went into the witness box, defence counsel for Mr
20Zundel gave me a one inch thick affidavit which was the
21engineering report produced by Mr Fred Leuchter, and he
22said, if you read this, you will find this very
23interesting. Of course, I could not read a one inch thick
24affidavit in the remaining hours, but I glanced at the
25summary at the beginning and I looked at the principal
26conclusions. They may even have told me in outline what

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