Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 6: Electronic Edition

Pages 91 - 95 of 195

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    Subject to what I said a few days ago, that they would
 1Hitler. They could not just knock on the door or ring the
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you just turn the page, I am sure you are very familiar
 4with this.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     If I may just carry on there, Krista Schroeder, Hitler's
 6private secretary, was a witness of the conversation
 7between Hitler and Martin Bormann after the flight of
 8Rudolf Hess when Martin Bormann took over as chief of the
 9Party Chancellory, and Bormann said to Hitler, "Mein
10Fuhrer, what instructions do you have", and Hitler's
11response was: "Only one. Keep the Gauleiters off my
12back". In other words, he did not need them any more.
13I think it is a material point of view of the fact that
14you are trying to draw attention to the closeness between
15Hitler and the Gauleiters.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I think you have accepted a closeness between Himmler and
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, they visited two or three times a week.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, and here is Himmler talking to high-ranking people in
20the Nazi machine.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And the Gauleiters are perhaps subordinate or they are
23less high ranking than ----
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Than the party machinery, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- than the Reichsleiters?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, a bit like the constituency chairman.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is a gathering of high-ranking people?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Gau is a region or an area, is it?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     It is, yes, like a constituency in the Conservative Party;
 5these being the chairmen of the local region. They
 6wore Jackboots and carried guns.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     If you turn to page 17 -- this is taken from a
 8microfilm -- I think I am right that the relevant passage
 9or the passage which is translated in Longerich begins
10just in about the middle page opposite the punch hole,
11"ich bitte Sie"?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     "I do ask you to keep secret, to listen to what I am
13saying, just listen and never to speak about it, what I am
14saying in these circles. We came up against the question,
15what about the women and children, and I took the
16decision here too for a clear solution".
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Carry on.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     "I did not consider myself justified in liquidating just
19the men", in other words he says "auszurotten", which is
20the word there he uses and then he expands. He explains
21because he feels he has to explain what he means by
22"auszurotten". In other words, "to kill them" or "to
23have them killed". He himself is pointing out the word
24"auszurotten" is not sufficiently clear even in these
25circles; he has to emphasise what he means by it, and to
26leave ----

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you carry on just a bit further, please?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. It is very complicated German.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I know, something about letting the avengers ----
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Exactly, and "to leave alive the children to act as the
 5avengers against our sons and grandchildren". In other
 6words, the idea is that if you leave the next generation,
 7the younger generation alive, then they will come back to
 8haunt you.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have got to exterminate the whole brood.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Absolutely what he says that.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you leave one mouse then it may have children?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     That is right. A highly significant speech in many
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Carry on reading, please, just two more sentences, "es
15musste der schwer Entschluss".
16 A. [Mr Irving]     "There had to be taken", I am putting it like that, "there
17had to be taken the grave decision to have this people
18disappear from the face of the earth. For the
19organization which had to carry out this job, it was the
20most difficult that we had so far."
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. The method of disappearance about which Heinrich
22Himmler, the Reichsfuhrer SS, is speaking in early October
231943 is murder?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Quite clearly.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Quite clearly.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     By what means?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not sure if it is really relevant here, my Lord.
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Well, answer would you even so?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think he is talking about means there, but
 4obviously by murder.
 5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I appreciate that, but what do you assess him as having
 6had in mind?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     But whatever means to convey them from life to death. He
 8is certainly not being explicit here, but of course, my
 9Lord, it will not surprise you that I rely on the earlier
10part of that paragraph where he says, "I had to take the
11serious decision." I think this is a very powerful point
12in my favour. He does not say: "The Fuhrer took the
13decision", where he very easily could have in these
14circles. He is speaking, after all, to the top Nazi
16 MR RAMPTON:     Not on this occasion explicitly.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     He is being very explicit indeed. "I had to take this
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If Hitler or -- no, it does not say that.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     "I decided".
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "I decided to find a very clear solution to this
23 A. [Mr Irving]     "I have taken the decision to find a clear solution".
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If Hitler already knew about it ----
25 A. [Mr Irving]     You cannot climb out of that one, Mr Rampton.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I can, I am just about to. Do not worry, I am going to

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 1show you another document which I know you are familiar
 2with, so I do not know why you say what you say. I will
 3find out later perhaps.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     There is no need to get rattled about it, but this is a
 5cardinal document, Mr Rampton. Here is Himmler saying,
 6"I took the decision".
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, can I ask you to calm down a little and answer
 8this question. If Hitler already knew about it, the
 9injunction to the Gau and Reichs leaders to not speak
10about it would not matter, would it, I mean so far as its
11going upwards is concerned? What they are not supposed to
12do is to talk about it lower down.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     He does not actually say that. He just says "keep mum".
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I know, but if Hitler already knew about it and had
15actually given Himmler the order to do it, in general
16terms, the authority to do it, then he is not talking
17about not telling Hitler, is he?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not prepared to extrapolate from what it is in that
19document. I am just saying what the document tells us,
20since he says: "We are doing this but keep quiet about
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Let us look at something a little bit more explicit, shall
24 A. [Mr Irving]     But if you remember what I clearly allow is that from this
25point on Adolf Hitler no excuse not to know because the
26very next day these same gentlemen went to him and he

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