Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 6: Electronic Edition

Pages 86 - 90 of 195

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    I did not say that, I think, if you look at the
 1transcript. Do not let us argue about what I said. You
 2can verify it on the transcript.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Shall we go back it Hitler and Himmler
 4because we are going to have to go through Auschwitz in
 5detail later?
 6 MR RAMPTON:     I agree.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     It is just that paragraph 2 rather challenged that.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I know. You made that observation and we
 9have dealt with it. Let us get on.
10 MR RAMPTON:     I am going to deal first, since I have now got
11it -- my Lord, the file in question is H1(ix) at page 260.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Page 260.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think we have had H1 (ix), have we?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Page 260?
15 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, page 260.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     It appears to be an orphan. It has no title.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am sure you have not read it, but you will have heard of
18Noakes' and Pridom's great work on the history of Nazi
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Whose book is this?
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You are not going to read it, so I do not really see why
22I need to, but, anyhow, it is called J. Noakes, G. Pridom,
23"Nazis 1919 to 1945" in three volumes, published by
24I think the Exeter University Press in 1988. This page,
25260 in our file, is page 1199 of that massive work. It is
26a translation, presumably by Mr Noakes or Mr Pridom, or

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 1both of them, I know not, of a speech which Himmler is
 2supposed to have made at Posen to, I think, German
 3Generals? Were they German Generals?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     It was the SS Gruppenfuhrer.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     SS chiefs in Posen, nowadays called Posner, on 4th October
 61943. Unfortunately, once again I do not have the
 7German. I would like to have it and I am hoping to get
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     It will not be contentious, Mr Rampton. I will not
10dispute this translation.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you glanced at it?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. It is a very famous speech. It is referred to on
13page 575 of my Hitler's War. I quote it in full.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He says: "I also want to talk to you quite frankly about
15a very grave matter", etc, etc. "We can talk about it
16quite frankly amongst ourselves and yet we will never
17speak of it publicly". Then he goes on a bit talking
18about an analogous event in the past which is the Night of
19the Long Knives, it is the SA obliteration, is it not?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then this is the sentence to which I would like to draw
22your attention: "I am referring to the Jewish evacuation
23programme, the extermination of the Jewish people". That
24is, you say, a very famous speech. What words can you
25remember -- I am sorry I have not got the German -- what
26words can you remember Himmler used when he said what we

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 1see here, "I am referring to the Jewish evacuation
 2programme, the extermination of the Jewish people"?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I shall have to look at the original text, it is
 4either Auswotung or Vernichtung -- but it is not a
 5material point, because he immediately explains he means
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The point I wish to draw your attention to is this, that
 8there, Himmler, speaking to SS chiefs, or whatever it was,
 9uses evacuation and extermination synonymously, does he
11 A. [Mr Irving]     In that case, yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is a jolly good pointer, is it not, Mr Irving, to the
13use of such camouflage language habitually within the SS
14at the very least?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, it is rather like the Americans talking about
16terminating with extreme prejudice.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you did agree that "Evakuierung" can
18be used and is sometimes used as synonymous with
20 A. [Mr Irving]     It is not always used, but in this case it clearly is.
21 MR RAMPTON:     Here is an example one cannot argue with.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     But it would be false to argue automatically the other
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That as a matter of logic is necessarily right; as a
25matter of history it may not be. Can we then turn to page
2673 of Longerich, please?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     At the top of the page, now here I have got the texts.
 3"On 6th October 1943 Himmler explained to Gau and Reichs
 4chiefs in Posen: I ask you that that which I say to you in
 5this circle be really only heard ..."
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Which page are we on now?
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     73 of Longerich one.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think it can be 73.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You must have the wrong part of Longerich.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you sure it is Longerich one?
11 MR RAMPTON:     Longerich is divided into two parts. Yes, you have
12the wrong bit; you are looking at the second bit.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     All Longerich is divided into two parts.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why he divided it into two, I do not know.
15 MR RAMPTON:     Generalities and then particulars, rather like a
17 A. [Mr Irving]     OK, yes, it is a totally different volume. This is, of
18course, a different speech now, isn't it?
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is two days later.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     That is right, yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The audience is different as well.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     The Gau- and Reichsleiter.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You will find that and I think we should look at it -- it
24is going to be particularly important when we come to
25Sonthofen in May 1944 -- in bundle H4 (ii).
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We are darting about a bit. Are we leaving

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 173 of Longerich?
 2 MR RAMPTON:     No, I am just starting 73 of Longerich; I am
 3actually getting the document.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not sure you want to read this out, because this
 5supports entirely what I have always said, but carry on.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is very good of you, Mr Irving; I think we probably
 7will. The document begins -- have you got the document
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is quite a long speech, something like 49 pages.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The first page is marked, my Lord, at the bottom
13right-hand corner, FNA (86).
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I have got it.
15 MR RAMPTON:     It says: "Rede des Reichsfuhrer SS". Does that
16mean speeches?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Speeches of the Reichsfuhrer SS to the Reichs- and
18Gauleiters in Posen on 6th October 1943, and speaking as
19always as the Reichsfuhrer SS and as a Party comrade to
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The Reichsleiters and Gauleiters -- how senior are they?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     The Reichsleiters come directly beneath Hitler and they
23have the rank of minister.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And they have automatic access to Hitler, do they not?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Subject to what I said a few days ago, that they would
26have to get an invitation before they could go to see

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