Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 6: Electronic Edition

Pages 76 - 80 of 195

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    Mr Rampton, we are talking about 97,000 on one case. You
 1particular atrocity. I quoted the Greiser letter and
 2I quoted the figure.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     When you say the "same Jews", do you mean the
 497,000 equals the 100,000?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     A part of the 100,000. I believe that is the submission
 6that Mr Rampton is trying to make.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I would like, if I may, just one minute
 8when I get the reference to look and see what it is that
 9Mr Irving said about the Greiser letter.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It says 1991 Hitler's War.
11 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, my Lord. Page 426.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 426.
13 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, 426.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     About two-thirds of the way down.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     It is on page 330 of the first edition too.
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     It is probably the same words.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     It almost certainly is. I think I make it quite plain
18there that 100,000 had been, quotation marks, "specially
19treated" and the innuendo is quite plain for reader to
21 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. My only comment about that in that version,
22Mr Irving, is that you for some reason -- I do not know
23what the reason is -- you add the sentence "Hitler was not
25 A. [Mr Irving]     It is in the first edition too, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Am I wrong?
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, what is the significance?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I am writing about Adolf Hitler, Mr Rampton. If Hitler is
 4not mentioned in a document concerning the killing of
 5100,000 Jews, it is significant for the reader -- you will
 6probably agree.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You are afraid that the reader seeing this huge number
 8which it is -- there is no question about that -- being
 9killed in the Warthegau might infer that Hitler knew
10something about it, is that right?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Shall we go back to May 1st document again, Mr Rampton?
12Greiser is saying to Himmler: "The operation carried out
13in your authority and the authority of Heydrich and
14killing 100,000" or "I have killed 100,000 or I am about
15to kill 100,000 or submit them to special treatment", if I
16am writing about Hitler, I am absolutely justified to say,
17"Oh, by the way, Hitler is not mentioned in this
18document". That is a very important clue.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, if Himmler had a general authority to do such
20things, where would it come from?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     It would come from Adolf Hitler. He would say in the
22correspondence: "On the Fuhrer's instructions, I am
23ordering the following". That covers him.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It does not, Mr Irving. If Himmler had a general
25authority (and you should sometimes listen more carefully
26to my questions) to do these kinds of things, it would

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 1come from Hitler?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh, dear! If, general, these kinds of things, is this a
 3smoking gun, the best we can do after 55 years?
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What is the answer to my question?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     That is the answer. 55 years we have had to paddle around
 6in the archives now of Warsaw, Moscow as well as the
 7Western world, and there is still not the slightest shred
 8of written evidence that Hitler ----
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The answer to my question, I think, must be yes; if he had
10such authority, it would have come from Hitler?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     But he would have mentioned ----
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Your second answer to a question I have not asked, but
13never mind, is we do not know of any evidence that Hitler
14did confer any such general authority on Himmler, is that
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, and the rider, the corollary of that is that we would
17have expected to find such evidence just as there is in
18the euthanasia programme where the actual signed order
19from Hitler is in the archives.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But Hitler did authorize the euthanasia
22 A. [Mr Irving]     He actually signed the order, my Lord, backdated it to
23September 1st, 1939. That is in the archives.
24 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     The euthanasia programme really came to an end when the
25gas vans were transferred to killing on the Eastern

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Hitler ordered it to stop in August 1941. He ordered the
 2euthanasia programme stopped in 1941 because of public
 3unrest and disquiet, but it is characteristic and not
 4without significance for these hearings that, in fact, the
 5euthanasia programme continued in the background, rather
 6like the Bruns business, where the SS man was ordered to
 7stop but still said, "Well, we are going to carry it on
 8with unobtrusive means".
 9 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     But I think really the drift of my question was, well, if
10he was brought in to authorize the euthanasia programme,
11does that suggest at all that it might be probable that he
12was consulted about using the gas vans for some other
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not want to be flippant, my Lord, but the answer is
15the archives do not tell us.
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     No, but as a matter of guessing what the reality was?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     They should, my Lord, because knowing the mentality of the
18German people, they would have covered themselves with
19paper. They would have written letters to each other
20saying, "We are doing this on the Fuhrer's orders. The
21Fuhrer has instructed". Even if that was not in the
22archives, we would expect to find it in the Bletchley Park
23files. That is what I shall be questioning one of your
24experts about.
25 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I can do one of two things now. I am
26entirely in your Lordship's hands really. I can develop

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 1this question of Himmler's authority which I do not think
 2Mr Irving disputes, not only that, well, that he did do
 3it, apparently, on Mr Irving's account, without any kind
 4of authority from Hitler to murder millions of Jews.
 5I can pursue the question of Himmler's authority, or I can
 6move to completely different topic which is the
 7Schlegelberger memorandum. Both are somewhat intricate in
 8a sort of a sense. The first exercise will involve going
 9to 1943 and 1944 for some references to what both Himmler
10and Hitler said. The second involves merely a discussion,
11if I can put it like that, of what the so-called
12Schlegelberger memorandum might be and what it might
13represent. I really do not mind which I do.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, it is very difficult for me to suggest
15one way or the other. In a sense, we are on Hitler and
16Himmler and their respective knowledge and authority for
17what was going on, so maybe that is better taken next.
18But can I before you do that just ask a question which
19I think I may have raised before, but I do not understand
20Mr Irving to have answered it yet.
21     Do you accept or do you not that there was
22gassing of Jews using trucks or vans at Treblinka, Sobibor
23in the same way as you have accepted there was at Belzec?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not accept it, which does not mean to say that I do
25not believe that it happened, but, quite simply, I have
26not investigated it and I do not think we have been shown

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