Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 6: Electronic Edition

Pages 71 - 75 of 195

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Lots of things are there to be found. I do not have teams
 2of 30 or 40 researchers working at the expense of God
 3knows who is paying for the defence in this case, looking
 4through all the archives, trying to find documents to
 5prove me wrong.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You know about the letter, you have always known about the
 7letter, of 1st May 1942 from Greiser to Himmler, yes?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is in your books, is it not?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I have quoted it in my books, yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And that speaks of "Sonderbehandlung of some 100,000 Jews
12in my territory in an action approved by you in agreement
13with Heydrich will be completed in the next two or three
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Experimental? Sonderbehandlung?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     But, Mr Rampton, this document is quoted in full in my
18books. That passage is quoted in full in my books.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But not in connection with gassing by trucks?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, we do not know from Greiser what method has been
21used to specially treat, if I can use the word, those
22100,000 people.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought you accepted earlier on this
24morning -- we can find the reference -- that that was
25actually a reference to gassing?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     From the later documents which are now available, my Lord,

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 1this is plain, but at the time I wrote the book I had only
 2the 1st May document. Our knowledge advances by stages,
 3particularly now these other archives have been opened to
 4us. It cannot be held against me that I did not know
 5something in 1970 when I wrote the book which is now only
 6available at the end of the 20th century.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     No, I am not talking about the book, Mr Irving.
 8You knew about the Greiser letter for a long time. It
 9mentions the killing, or proposed killing, of 100,000 Jews
10in the Warthegau from 1st May in a couple of months, two
11or three months?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but we do not know what methods have been used to
13dispose of them.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Please, Mr Irving, I have not finished my sentence. That
15is all that is in the book because you did not know about
16the Turner letter of 5th June 1942, you tell us. I am not
17in a position to contradict you?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, of course, can I tell you when I first got the
19Turner letter? That was in 1977.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The Turner letter in 977?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I have to state that, yes. I was sent page 1 of the
22Turner letter, I believe, by Mr Sereny round about July
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     By the time of the second edition of Hitler's War you did
25know about it?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. But whether I would have read it in detail or not.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do I find it in that? I am asking that as a completely
 2open question to which I do not know the answer.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I think you will probably ...
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I think I had better check it.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I must make this quite plain. I have had the Turner
 6letter in my possession probably for 23 years.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. So?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     But the Turner letter by itself is a very suspect document
 9until you see the subsidiary documents that have become
10available since then.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Will your Lordship forgive me? I am just trying to look
12in the index to see whether there is any reference to
13this. If there were a reference, Mr Irving, it would be
14in the later part of the book, would it not? I mean in
15the 1991 edition?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Are you enquiring whether I used Turner letter in either
17edition of the Hitler book?
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not believe I did.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Obviously not the first one because you told us ----
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not believe I did.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You do not think you did?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can I put it to you that you suppressed it?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     You can put it to me like that, but, obviously,
26I suppressed many hundreds of thousands of documents when

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 1I wrote a book of that magnitude.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What was that? I am sorry I missed it.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     The Turner letter has been subjected to the most intensive
 4scrutiny by people both yeh and nay, if I can put it like
 5that, and when there is a document like that, one's
 6instinct is to steer clear of it.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, now there is another letter which we saw referred to
 8in paragraph 5.2.2 of Professor Browning. That is the
 9letter about the functioning of the trucks of 5th June
101942. That is not the Turner letter. This a Warthegau
12 A. [Mr Irving]     On what page is that?
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is page 38, and the body of the report is translated at
14the bottom of the page. As I say, I have absolutely no
15intention of reading that out whatsoever.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but you are not implying that I have had that
17document in my possession until a few weeks or months ago?
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have only recently had that document?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. That is what I say. When you see a document like
20that, then you are more inclined to accept the Turner
21letter as being genuine.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What about the Greiser letter?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     The Greiser letter, there has never been any doubt as to
24that, the authenticity, because it was an American custody
25and it is microfilmed with the Heinrich Himmler papers.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But you did not think before wading in and saying that

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 1there were only a very limited number of experimental
 2truck gassings or bus gassings at a serious conference of
 3historians, you did not pause to consider what it might be
 4that the Turner letter told you which you had at that
 5time, indeed, you had when you wrote Hitler's War '91?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I could have expatiated at length at that conference
 7on the Turner letter, and I could have pointed to the
 8things that point to its authenticity, but also at great
 9length to the things that give rise to be dubious about
10it; for example, the very weird SS runes that had been
11hand typed in and things like that.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, as you see and as you know perfectly well, and
13as I will, no doubt, have to put to you again along down
14the road, you are all too eager to jump on anything,
15dignify it with your authority, that suggests that the
16scale of Nazi criminality during the war, whether it be
17the killing of Jews or the responsibility of Adolf Hitler,
18anything that seems to diminish or reduce that
19proposition, size of the crime, or the level to which the
20criminality went up?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, we are talking about 97,000 on one case. You
22are saying that I have suppressed that fact and yet I have
23quoted in full the Greiser letter which talks of 100,000,
24it is precisely the same one. I believe the belief is
25that it is exactly the same victims we are talking about,
26so you cannot accuse me of having suppressed that

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