Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 6: Electronic Edition

Pages 66 - 70 of 195

<< 1-5191-195 >>
    So shall I. Go down to the end of that paragraph
 1of experiment was made on a very limited scale but that it
 2was rapidly abandoned as being a totally inefficient way
 3of killing people. But I do not accept that the gas
 4chambers existed and this is well known. I have seen no
 5evidence at all that gas chambers existed". Unless you
 6are going to quibble about the word "chambers", Mr Irving,
 7the fact is that what you said about the gassing on that
 8bus and the limited kind of scale for that kind of
 9experimental gassing, was just rubbish, was it not?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, when you talk about gas chambers and the
11public perception, people are imagining what they see at
12Auschwitz, the big concrete fixtures, the chimneys, the
13steel doors, the whole of the paraphernalia. I am sure
14that I am right on that.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Leave out the last----
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Would you not interrupt me, please? They are not talking
17about the mobile gas truck experiment and to try and
18suggest that when I say that the gas chambers did not
19exist, this is a reference to the gas trucks which I have
20here said quite clearly do exist, I think is perverse.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, I am going to read it again. Just one little
22bit. You have described how Irving looked through a peep
23hole into the back of a bus and he saw a number of
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Eichmann looked through the peep hole.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Eichmann saw a number of people being gassed by the

.   P-66

 1exhaust fumes. This is Mr Irving speaking, formally
 2speaking, in a corrected or approved version in
 3print. "So I accept that this kind of experiment, that is
 4to say, the sort that Eichmann witnessed, and I stress the
 5word experiment, was made on a very limited scale, but
 6that it was rapidly abandoned as being a totally
 7inefficient way of dealing people".
 8     Now that, as a statement of history, was just
 9rubbish, was it not?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     The very element now turns out to be wrong, yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So does the experiment.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That has been conceded now, has it not?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Except that it was abandoned and replaced by other means
14of killing people.
15 MR RAMPTON:     The point of my going back to that was this. You
16said not long ago that you cannot be blamed for making an
17off the cuff answer in answer to a statement in answer to
18a question?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That was a wrong answer too, was it not?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is not an off the cuff response to a question?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     This is part of the main talk, yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I repeat my earlier question, do you not think -- is this
25IHR a reputable and authoritative body?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Do we wish to discuss that at this time?

.   P-67

 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I just want to know. Are these conferences attended by
 2top notch historians and that kind of thing?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     They are. But this is an occasion ----
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I will be producing evidence later on the nature of the
 6audience at these bodies and the directors of the
 7Institute all have academic qualifications and degrees.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I just want to get the flavour of the occasion on which
 9you uttered these words.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I was going to mention that fact. This is a body of
11incorrigible, shall we say, people whom I am sure the
12Defence would describe as Holocaust deniers, and I am
13rubbing their noses in what did happen, and I think I
14deserve commendation for that. I am saying, "Here is
15Eichmann describing in his memoirs how he attended a mass
16shooting from such close range that he was personally
17affected in a rather disagreeable way by the shooting that
18went on.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, I am sorry, you must try -- I am perhaps not
20making myself clear -- you say this paper was presented at
21a conference of reputable academics and others who may
22take one or other view about the past, but this is a
23serious occasion?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     This is a talk by me to an audience in California, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But it is a serious occasion?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     To an audience who do not want to hear me say this. They

.   P-68

 1want to hear me say something totally different.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, please, is this a serious occasion or not?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     In what sense? Is it a collar and tie occasion?
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You expect it to be taken serious.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Do you expect to be taken seriously?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. People have gone there to come away improved with a
 7knowledge improved, enhanced.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     So it is quite different from a question and
 9answer session at a knock about press conference, is it
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Knock about press conference?
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     K-N-O-C-K about. You expected what you said to be taken
13seriously by your audience?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, and it was taken very seriously.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What you said was historical nonsense?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     The word "very limited" is wrong.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So is the word "experiment".
18 A. [Mr Irving]     I disagree. They abandoned the gas trucks after a time
19which showed that the experiment did not work.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, 97,000 people, is that not rather a
21long experiment?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     On the scale of 6 million, my Lord, which is the figure
23claimed by the Defence.
24 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Not by you?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, 97,000 is a large figure which we now know about
26from the document which has now been shown to us, the

.   P-69

 1documents that have now been shown to us, which, of
 2course, I had not seen at that time. If they abandoned
 3the gas trucks method of killing people, as they clearly
 4did, and we know from the documents now that it was
 5precisely because it turned out to be a totally
 6impracticable way of killing people.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving ----
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I think the word "experimental" is entirely unjustified.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Leaving aside for the moment ----
10 A. [Mr Irving]     The idea of experimenting in killing people is grotesque
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Particularly if it is to the tune of 100,000 people?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     I agree. It is actually obscene.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why did you not say that? Why did you not say, Mr Irving,
15"I have looked at this question. They have managed to
16get up to 100,000 at least", we know that from the
17documents, "but then they decided that was not a very good
18way of doing it, so they stopped doing it that way.
19Nonetheless, the fact is that they succeeded in killing in
20the East and in the Reinhard camps well over a million
22 A. [Mr Irving]     I always suspected, Mr Rampton, you are not listening to
23my answers, and that is just proof of it. I told you this
24figure of 100,000 only comes to my knowledge within the
25last few weeks or months.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But it was there to be found, was it not?

.   P-70

<< 1-5191-195 >>